Do we need instructors?

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To me, an instructor is made up of his/her knowledge base, their presentation style and their motivation for teaching. All of these components make up "the instructor" and (for me) are now factored in when deciding which if any I would choose. In some cases I would choose a competent mentor over an officially designated instructor if they lacked something meaningful in those three areas. For most people (myself included) there really isn't any "choice" at the OW level as non divers have no real way to gauge the proficiency of different agencies or the competency of their instructors (or whether they may be better served by a mentor). It is only post OW (and with some experience) that a diver begins to have some ability to judge varying system values.

Of course, that is just the opinion of an ordinary diver. In a thread asking whether instructors are neccisary I feel it is appropriate to add an insight from someone who may be a client/student of an instructor/mentor. Having only instructors answer the question might seem a little self serving (though I am impressed with the intelligent, self critical responses that Thal, DCBC, I Dive and others have given). I also respect the opinion of people like Captain who is as far from formalized instruction as one can get yet his posts always contain meaningful insights that I learn from.

I became curious as to why some people become instructors even before this thread. Several of my buddies have recently gone "pro" (for various reasons) but I took a left turn after AOW and put a moratorium on further training for a while, prefering to just log dives and gain experience (in order to assimilate the knowledge I already have gained). I don't judge my friends in any way (btw) and often joke that I will be the last amatuer in the crowd.

1. Some I know, do so because they enjoy diving and want to pass their love of it to others. These instructors (from my personal experience) tend to do a great job and usually don't have a problem with mentoring as well as instructing. Now that I know better, these are the types of instructors I seek out when there is an area of diving I feel would be better served by formal instruction rather than mentoring. I have said before that I am most interested in being taught "how to think" which is not something every instructor can do.

2. Some do so because they tend to view life as a linear progression and it is the next rung on the ladder as presented by whatever agency they belong to. Unless one wishes to pursue technical diving there is a flat spot after AOW/Rescue (and some specialties). Of course this plateau is where one is supposed to just gain experience via diving but some people feel they need to always be progressing in some measurable, definative way. The next natural step in some agencies is DMing and instructing.

3. Some people like to travel and dive and instructing allows them to do so and some do so (DMing anyways) because they get free air and discounts on specialty courses.

4. Some do so because they lack the self confidence to just be ordinary divers (or people for that matter). They have fragile egos and seek out titles or status in all areas of their lives (or avoid the areas they cannot achieve it). At home they will be the boss, at work they will always make sure you know their title. They are very good at talking but not so good at listening. You can usually tell them apart by the fact that they cannot brook people questioning their authority and tend to use their position to gain pats on the back (and feel poorly done by if they don't get them). They tend to hang on the words of those they consider peers as it re inforces their status and unlike the instructors in group #1 they tend to dismiss the POV of those without credentials (falsely thinking that others in their class also discriminate on the basis of title alone).

Of course, mentors can be just as liable as instructors to teach for the right or wrong reasons. This is why I take the stance that both can be useful in learning how to dive and that one group should not exclude or negate the other.
 
Unless of course he places himself in the Instructor's role; at which time he will be expected to act accordingly. :)
No, he does not have to live up to the duties incumbent on the role of a certified professional instructor ... even if, in mentoring, he has taken on that task.
 
No, he does not have to live up to the duties incumbent on the role of a certified professional instructor ... even if, in mentoring, he has taken on that task.

I'm not a lawyer Thal, but I understood that if a person holds himself out as an Instructor; taking on the role of an Instructor; s/he has the responsibilities of an Instructor. I would happily like clarification from one of the many lawyers hanging around SB. As I understand it, it doesn't matter if money is even a factor. The mentor/Instructor takes on a position of authority and as such has the same standard of care. I reiterate, I'm not a lawyer, it's just my understanding. :)
 
Remember, the mentor is not holding himself out as an instructor. Taking on the role of a mentor is not the same as taking on the role of a certified professional instructor. The tasks may be similar, but I doubt that a court would find that that mentor had the same obligations and could be expected to perform at the same level as the instructor.
 
As I understand recent threads in which attorneys did participate, the "Mentor" would have to act in some way the way a professional would act, but it can get murky. What follows is my lay understanding of what I have recently read and is not professional advice.

If the person accepts any kind of pay (even including, say, the price of a tank fill or lunch), then the person is in the role of a professional instructor and has liability for problems that may ensue. That's pretty clear.

If the "Mentor" says "let's go diving," and they plan and do the dive as a normal buddy team except that the Mentor offers suggestions, etc., then there is no more liability than a normal buddy would have. That's pretty clear.

If the Mentor projects himself or herself into a role that leads the other to depend upon him or her for guidance and protection, then that "Mentor" could be perceived as being in the role of an instructor and would have additional liability. That's pretty murky.
 
John: exactly!
 
Throughout much of this thread, I have been amazed...
I am more than amazed at what you have written here
at the vehemence with which one poster has defended the title of "Professional SCUBA Instructor."
To defend a profession is not to defend a title. Show me where I have defended such a thing. Just for the record,as far as I know, there are only noble titles, academic titles and ocassionally, honorific titles. In the military, the Pollce and the Fire Department there are ranks. Everything else are jobs, including teaching scuba.
The very idea that PSIs may not be absolutely necessary to the basic training of divers elicits an almost violent response.
I stand up for an unpopular position and I am going to continue to defend it. If you call that almost violent, so be it.
This poster has taken the discussion as a personal attack and has responded with a combatative "Me against Them" attitude when the entire purpose of this discussion is just that: a discussion.
This is the society we have created. When the majority can't force the minority to submit, they resort to this kind of behavior. When we can't be pressured by the thought police, we have combative Me Against Them attitudes. I see absolutely nothing personal about any posts except the rude ones or the ones where people make personal comments that have nothing to do with the matter in hand to try to prove their point. This is one of such posts. You try at the end of it to wiggle out by saying
NOTE: I am not saying that the aforementioned poster fits in this category, only that I was reminded of something I learned a long time ago.
Where I come from we call that "throwing the stone and then hiding our hand behind our backs".

Your post is another attempt to undermine my arguments by now making comments about what you consider to be my psychological state.

I have pondered this at length....
Ponder some more.
 
I am not trying to wiggle out of anything and there is no need to ponder it any more. It isn't worth the effort.

If I decide to throw a rock at someone, my hand won't be hidden. It'll be too busy picking up another rock!:D


"I stand up for an unpopular position and I am going to continue to defend it."

Hmm. Didn't Davy Crockett say something to that effect somewhere down in Texas?
 
As long as that "license" is solely to provide proof of competency and does not criminalize someone who choses to dive without obtaining it it.

Criminalize, no but someone would be held accountable if the family decided to sue. An organized dive, a boat dive for instance, has to have some way of ensuring beyond the diver's word for it, that they are competent enough to "go down there". If a diver rents a tank from a dive shop, some where out there is a lawyer waiting to pounce. So unless you have all your own gear, can supply your own air and simply gear up and walk off the beach then yes I guess maybe you can dive with out any kind of certification, in other words strictly at your own risk. Then again I'm sure some lawyer would figure out a way to sue the "beach"!
 
As I understand recent threads in which attorneys did participate, the "Mentor" would have to act in some way the way a professional would act, but it can get murky. What follows is my lay understanding of what I have recently read and is not professional advice.

If the person accepts any kind of pay (even including, say, the price of a tank fill or lunch), then the person is in the role of a professional instructor and has liability for problems that may ensue. That's pretty clear.

If the "Mentor" says "let's go diving," and they plan and do the dive as a normal buddy team except that the Mentor offers suggestions, etc., then there is no more liability than a normal buddy would have. That's pretty clear.

If the Mentor projects himself or herself into a role that leads the other to depend upon him or her for guidance and protection, then that "Mentor" could be perceived as being in the role of an instructor and would have additional liability. That's pretty murky.

Let's say that a mentor takes out a person with dependands. No money exchanges hands, the mentor says explicitly he is not instructor, doesn't represent himself as an instructor, knows nothing about instructing, warns of the consequences, wears an I am not an instructor T-shirt prior to the dive, you get my point.

Winning the case isn't going to save you from the attorney fees for defending you.
 
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