Equipment If you can't drop your weights and you are sinking

This Thread Prefix is for incidents caused by equipment failures including personal dive gear, compressors, analyzers, or odd things like a ladder.

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Having a weight belt fall off is just the same as forgetting to connect an LP inflator. It is a user error. Saying that ditchable weights are a liability is really saying "I don't want to deal with making sure my gear works reliably. You should never ditch weight at depth, but being able to hand weights up to a boat crew or take it off so I can get into a RIB seems pretty handy to me. If I were lost from a boat and was going to be in the water for a long time seems like a pretty easy choice...

I have a DUI harness and it allows for ditching weights. I have never heard of anyone accidentally dropping weights off a DUI harness.

The DUI harness is great. Love mine! I use it when diving a single with my drysuit.

Many of us are responding to the OP’s comment that they are ‘… aware of the fact that you should always have a quick release mechanism to drop your weights in case of an emergency.’ That statement is not true. It is probably what they were taught, but it’s not some sort of scuba rule.

I’ve seen far more instances of divers accidentally losing ditchable weights than divers who needed to ditch but couldn’t. Those instances can prove to be quite dangerous and can easily trigger an uncontrolled ascent.

As divers we all have to manage risks. You want ditchable weights. Awesome … use them! Some of us prefer more precise weighting and alternative ways to deal with lost buoyancy from a BCD failure.
 
There was a similar incident here in the UK about 10-15 years ago. A diver in training in a sheltered bay, seemingly benign conditions. Underweighted so the instructor loaded him up with small trim weights and rocks, he lost control of buoyancy, the instructor lost control of the situation and the diver panicked and drowned. It wasn't an uncommon thing to do, adjust weighting on the fly using whatever you had stuffed in pockets, but I think this really woke people up to the dangers of doing it. The fatal accident inquiry tore both the instructor and the agency to pieces if I recall.

If it was another student, since they coujdnt find a quick release, how could they not know to unzip the BCD pockets to take out the weights? That might have helped even if she had weights in her drysuit.

Have you ever been in a life or death situation? Unless you're very well trained or very cool then most people have limited processing power available for analytical thought. Particularly as the key word here is "student". That puts a lot on someone in training. I don't know the circumstances but criticizing the rescuer for not thinking of something that is so outside of standard practice that even a fairly experienced diver might not have thought of it is undeserved. I'm not sure "checking the zipped pockets of BCD and suit for weights" would be my first thought.

About taking off the BCD and unbuckling the cylinder and low pressure inflator hose and breathing from that, then swimming up, would that work if a different situation if the person had a wetsuit?

Again, you need to consider the circumstances. You are in a situation sliding way out of your control, struggling to breathe, struggling to move (I'm guessing you also haven't experienced a severe suit squeeze), probably overbreathing her regs and getting gooned with CO2... this is not the time and place for creative thought. Lots of things might work, whether or not you are capable of a. actually stopping and thinking through the situation and b. executing that plan is a totally different story.

In diving, from basic open water to being a km inside a cave, you want your options to be as simple and robust as possible. Until you experience it, the mental tunnel vision that happens in situations like this is hard to appreciate.

So the answer is yes, it probably would work to some extent. But in reality, the likelihood of someone who feels like they are seconds from death and getting more and more physically incapacitated doing a Mission Impossible stunt is pretty low.

Just to give you an example, I watched someone below me manage to snag his equipment on the main ascent line in a quarry in Wales. He realised it, tried to free himself, didn't work, panicked, made it worse, panicked some more and... he just gave up. He literally just resigned himself to being caught there like a fish, gave up all attempt at thinking his way out of it and just hung there. He was on his own (single cylinder as well), he wasn't aware that I was there and he just gave up. The solution wasn't particularly hard but he just did not have the mental capacity left to find it.

This is interesting. I've always heard that everybody should have a quick release. Also, the open water course teaches with a quick release.
It's the received wisdom in recreational diving for reasons that might be as wrong as they are right. As diving gets more advanced then the need for a QR weight belt drops through the floor and the risk of accidentally having a buckle ping open far outweighs the risk of not being able to release it.

Also, as equipment loading increases then the actual value of a weightbelt becomes negligible. When I switched to a twinset, steel backplate and big canister light from a standard BCD, single cylinder and a handheld torch I went from something like 8kg to maybe 1kg just for comfort and could probably get away without it. I liked an extra kg or so for the end of the dive and putting that on a weightbelt is pointless, dumping it does nothing so you might as well just find somewhere on your rig to integrate it.

I hated QR weightbelts even when I was diving a single. I don't know how popular diving from RHIBs is in the US but in the UK it's very common and you will lose a weightbelt at some point either handing it up to someone or trying to get back in the boat with it on.

When I'm freediving I use a Marseille style belt which is easily removable but cannot release on its own. I've used it occasionally for the few times I dive in a single cylinder rig, far better than the standard webbing and flip up buckle scuba type.

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The drysuit should have been the supplemental buoyancy. I thought that was obvious. Plus the diver was significantly overweighted.

My reference to a DSMB was as another example of supplemental buoyancy.
A single error seldom results in a accident. They usually result in a cascade of two or more. This woman had no way to add air to her suit, mistake one. She had an unreasonably large amount of lead, mistake two. She had no way to circumvent mistakes one and two. What should have been a upsetting and scary learning experience became a fatality.

Most divers make mistakes. We have all had "oh sh*t" moments. Some of them are going to be obvious. I forgot that I had been diving with an AL80 and that I had 6 lbs of lead in trim pockets. When I went back to my steel 120, I was over weighted. Dumb but not a big deal. I've seen a few people get in the water without hooking up their LP inflator. Dumb but not fatal. Forgotten LP hose for dry suit. Dumb but not fatal. Losing your buddy. Dumb but not fatal.

Everyone will eventually get distracted or forget something. With experience, the likelihood goes down, but it never goes to zero. Having a balanced rig does not mean you can't have ditchable weights. The victim in this accident and the OP are novice divers, not tech, not twinset, not cave.

The only time I ever lost a belt was vacation diving. It was a resort supplied belt with a nylon buckle and when I hit the water, the belt just kept on going. Lesson learned? don't use a crappy resort belt. I bring one of my own with a proper metal clasp or integrated.

My responses on this thread are directed to the novice diver that asked the question about that particular accident. That the woman lost her life was the result of several unmitigated errors. She should have been nowhere near water that deep without an LP hose. She was overweighted. She had no way to shed the weight once she was in trouble. The dive instructor lacked experience. The diver that tried to help her did not know where or how to remove the weights that were sinking her. A DUI harness for most or all of her lead would probably resulted in her walking away scared and shaken, or she might have died from an embolism. Proper weighting would have made assistance from the other student more helpful, but it would not have stopped the suit squeeze or enabled her to self rescue. The deeper she went, the more negative she would become and the tighter the squeeze.

A better shop might have avoided all these mistakes.

@Edward3c points out, most dead divers are are found with their weights intact. If I was to give advice to a new diver, I would say learn to dive (single tank, open water) with either a integrated weight pocket (removable/ ditchable) or a weight belt. Once you are comfortable in the water and have some real world experience, adjust your rig to match your needs and wants.

When I did my certification in 1980, I was not taught to use drop weights at depth. Buoyant ascents were taught, but as a last resort. Dropping weights was to keep you there.
 
@Edward3c points out, most dead divers are are found with their weights intact. If I was to give advice to a new diver, I would say learn to dive (single tank, open water) with either a integrated weight pocket (removable/ ditchable) or a weight belt. Once you are comfortable in the water and have some real world experience, adjust your rig to match your needs and wants.

Two comments.

One, how do you know the OP is a novice diver? They have given absolutely zero indication of their experience level that I recall seeing. Their profile says they aren't even certified which I doubt is true. Also, this is the Accidents, Incidents and Near Misses forum, not the Basic Scuba forum.

Two, the comment about most dead divers being found with their weights intact is a red herring. You are wanting that to show that if they had simply dropped their weights, they would be alive. You absolutely cannot know that without an accident analysis of each individual incident. Throwing that out is a completely meaningless statement.
 
Looks like a great advanced dive requiring plenty of experience and being “dived up”, not somewhere for a complete novice, nor the first dive in those conditions.

For sure. 100 logged dives required but also really you don't want to do some of those dives if you have not experienced extreme currents as well as down currents and up currents. A friend who dived there recently had dived currents in Maldives and Komodo but said Magnet was a lot stronger and he did actually get swept up on those rocks at the Magnet. He only added an extra kilo of weight but there are some strong up currents and you just need to descend quickly.
 
Two comments.

One, how do you know the OP is a novice diver? They have given absolutely zero indication of their experience level that I recall seeing. Their profile says they aren't even certified which I doubt is true. Also, this is the Accidents, Incidents and Near Misses forum, not the Basic Scuba forum.

Two, the comment about most dead divers being found with their weights intact is a red herring. You are wanting that to show that if they had simply dropped their weights, they would be alive. You absolutely cannot know that without an accident analysis of each individual incident. Throwing that out is a completely meaningless statement.
One of the many issues discussed here is the ability to ditch your gear. I am new to the backplate/wing setup and am looking at quick release shoulder strap options. I don't love all of the plastic pinch release buckles and am wondering if anyone has experience with the Helium hitch buckle? I've found little information/reviews on using this type of buckle and haven't seen it offered from other manufacturers.

Pros, Cons? what am I missing here?
 
Two, the comment about most dead divers being found with their weights intact is a red herring. You are wanting that to show that if they had simply dropped their weights, they would be alive. You absolutely cannot know that without an accident analysis of each individual incident. Throwing that out is a completely meaningless statement.
Agreed. Correlation is not causation. I would hazard a guess most people die in bed. If I avoid beds it will not extend my life.

"If they'd just done this then they would still be alive" is always thrown around at every accident discussion. If it was that simple then they would have done it and no-one would be talking about their death for a long while yet.
 
One of the many issues discussed here is the ability to ditch your gear. I am new to the backplate/wing setup and am looking at quick release shoulder strap options. I don't love all of the plastic pinch release buckles and am wondering if anyone has experience with the Helium hitch buckle? I've found little information/reviews on using this type of buckle and haven't seen it offered from other manufacturers.

Pros, Cons? what am I missing here?
I have no experience of that one but I used to use a Dive Rite deluxe harness many moons ago which had a pinch clip on one shoulder strap. The big issue I had with it was that the folds in my drysuit would sometimes push on the sides of the clip and release it. It was always at the worst possible moment too. I never had a clip actually break on a dive but I did get one get jammed between the slats on a boat bench and get broken that way too.

I went to a one piece harness in around 1997 and have never had any issue. That's on singles, twinsets and two rebreathers so far. Personally I think the ability to ditch your rig is massively overstated. I know people have had to do it to escape wrecks and the like and I can understand it for outlier events like that. As part of my general planning... I personally don't see a likely situation where I would need to. Worst case is cut the straps.
 
As will mashing on the inflator. In either case, I'd wish for an attentive buddy, as I'm unlikely to be face up on the surface if I pass out.
Sure. I am not advocating for ditchable weights being a substitute of attentive buddy or working BCD or well balanced rig. Belts and suspenders.
I can tell you that if I accidentally drop one weight pocket (2 lbs) it is not going to skyrocket me with uncontrolled assent. I have never dropped a weight pocket accidentally. Don’t ask me how I know, but a lost 2 pounder from a trim pocket is barely noticeable - was just a bit light on a safety stop.
Arguably, if at depth you need to establish positive buoyancy emergently - “mashing inflator button” can be more dangerous than dropping 4 lbs in the neutrally buoyant diver. If my buddy sees me pass out, I would rather have them drop my ditchable weight. Certainly , on the surface, I would recommend ditchable weights to be dropped on a disabled diver to help with transfer to boat/land.
I am sure it is very much situation dependent, but to me that is just another contingency.
 

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