Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[Jonn]

What would happen in a Colorado high school

You speak in jest, but that might not be quite the rhetorical question we hope it would be…

 

[Wookie]

You speak in jest, but that might not be quite the rhetorical question we hope it would be…

Not at all in jest. I acknowledge BoulderJohn is an educational expert, and I know nothing about educational theory. I understand oversight very well, as I have been overseen by experts.

My stand is that it is my opinion that training agencies should provide oversight to the folks they collect fees from. BoulderJohn maintains that there is great expense in oversight. I believe that the public believes that representing yourself as a member in good standing of a training agency would lead a unknowing member of the public to believe that there is some value in becoming a trained diver of (ABC agency).

When I go into the Toyota dealership, I assume that the mechanic is trained to work on my truck. The sign on the wall leads me to believe that. When I send my kid (I have no kids) to biology class, I assume that the teacher has some biology training, and my kid won’t get an indoctrination about how He rested on Sunday. When I see the inspection certificate on the door of my dive boat, I assume someone has actually inspected the boat.

Why wouldn’t I believe that when I choose diver training, the sign on the door doesn’t mean I am getting some quality product, regardless of what agency the sign represents?

 

[cerich]

Not at all in jest. I acknowledge BoulderJohn is an educational expert, and I know nothing about educational theory. I understand oversight very well, as I have been overseen by experts.

My stand is that it is my opinion that training agencies should provide oversight to the folks they collect fees from. BoulderJohn maintains that there is great expense in oversight. I believe that the public believes that representing yourself as a member in good standing of a training agency would lead a unknowing member of the public to believe that there is some value in becoming a trained diver of (ABC agency).

When I go into the Toyota dealership, I assume that the mechanic is trained to work on my truck. The sign on the wall leads me to believe that. When I send my kid (I have no kids) to biology class, I assume that the teacher has some biology training, and my kid won’t get an indoctrination about how He rested on Sunday. When I see the inspection certificate on the door of my dive boat, I assume someone has actually inspected the boat.

Why wouldn’t I believe that when I choose diver training, the sign on the door doesn’t mean I am getting some quality product, regardless of what agency the sign represents?

"The PADI Five Star Center logo on our website adds credibility and reinforces our position as a premium dive centre. The PADI logo is synonymous with scuba diving training so the Five Star status means that customers know they are booking with a trust worthy and quality establishment."

The benefits of being a PADI Five Star Dive Center - PADI Pros

If you are thinking of taking your PADI dive business to the next level, becoming a PADI Five Star Dive Center or Resort will raise your game! As a PADI Five Star Dive Center or Resort, you will receive benefits* over and above those offered to PADI Dive Centers and Resorts, including: An...

pros-blog.padi.com

Agency? You tell me.


By the way, this is not exclusive to Padi, so not picking on them

 

[brsnow]

You are correct, we have no idea what actions they took, if any.

What would happen in a Colorado high school if the Principal heard that a biology teacher was teaching creationism?

Depends on what county, but Colorado is a lively place, especially when it comes to school curriculum. Certainly wouldn’t go unnoticed.

 

[cerich]

Depends on what county, but Colorado is a lively place, especially when it comes to school curriculum. Certainly wouldn’t go unnoticed.

I am in Georgia, parents would picket if they weren't teaching creationism....

That was sarcasm.

 

[boulderjohn]

You are correct, we have no idea what actions they took, if any.

What would happen in a Colorado high school if the Principal heard that a biology teacher was teaching creationism?

The biology curriculum in Colorado, as in all 50 states, is determined by the state approved content standards.Each district has an approved curriculum that must be consistent with state standards. In general, if a teacher is teaching something that is contrary to state standards, the principal will counsel the teacher to stay within standards. If the teacher insists on doing otherwise, he or she can be fired for insubordination.

When I was in my mid 20s and teaching Colorado, a science teacher in our school (the students called him father Bob) taught that all illness was caused by demon possession, and they would be better off going to a priest than a doctor. At some point the principal announced that he had decided to leave teaching and enter a seminary. I don't know what was said in their discussions prior to the teacher making that decision.

 

[boulderjohn]

My stand is that it is my opinion that training agencies should provide oversight to the folks they collect fees from. BoulderJohn maintains that there is great expense in oversight. I believe that the public believes that representing yourself as a member in good standing of a training agency would lead a unknowing member of the public to believe that there is some value in becoming a trained diver of (ABC agency).

You speak in absolutes, and in so doing you make the fallacy of the excluded middle. In doing so, you misrepresent what I said.

In your fallacy, you say there are only two options--1) no oversight and 2) total oversight guaranteeing no nonconformance. What I said is that you are leaving out the entire spectrum in between. There is oversight at present that is partially effective, and getting close to that perfect oversight you imagine would be extremely expensive and would still not be totally effective.

Now, to return to the education comparison. Teachers are hired and fired by the school board. The school board does not observe and evaluate teachers. It would be far too great a task for them to do that. They leave that to the leadership in the building. If a principal recommends that a teacher be fired, they will review that recommendation and come to a decision. If a principal is not doing a proper job of overseeing the teachers at his or her school, then the school board should fire the principal.

For all instructors employed by a dive shop, the primary responsibility for oversight should be the dive shop's leadership. In the first shop where I worked, two instructors (three, actually) were fired by the shop manager for violating instructional standards (or other reasons) in two entirely separate incidents. Those are the people who see the instructors performing in their regular work, and those are the people who are controlling the conditions of their employment. That is also where you see the biggest breakdowns, as you see in the case that is the subject of this thread.

 

[boulderjohn]

And that’s the whole point, I guess, when we really drill down to it. The instructor isn’t an agent of PADI, and therefore there is no oversight of recreational scuba diving. There should be.

I have an honest question for you.

• In this and other threads, you have attacked PADI for not providing enough oversight over instructors. In this post, you said they provide none whatsoever, despite that fact that you well know that every issue of the Undersea Journal has a list of the instructors expelled in the previous quarter.
• In other threads (and in this one), you have attacked PADI for expelling instructors who commit standards violations in cases leading to death. You said they "throw them under the bus" rather than stand behind them the way a good agency would.

So here's my question. When you decide to bash PADI, how do you decide which direction to take--too little oversight or too much oversight? Does it depend upon the flow of the thread at the moment? Do you assume most people don't have a memory of what you have written in the past so you figure you'll get away with it?

 

[Russjstewart]

"The PADI Five Star Center logo on our website adds credibility and reinforces our position as a premium dive centre. The PADI logo is synonymous with scuba diving training so the Five Star status means that customers know they are booking with a trust worthy and quality establishment."

The benefits of being a PADI Five Star Dive Center - PADI Pros

If you are thinking of taking your PADI dive business to the next level, becoming a PADI Five Star Dive Center or Resort will raise your game! As a PADI Five Star Dive Center or Resort, you will receive benefits* over and above those offered to PADI Dive Centers and Resorts, including: An...

pros-blog.padi.com

Agency? You tell me.


By the way, this is not exclusive to Padi, so not picking on them

As a matter of interest what does a Dive Centre need to do to become a 5 star dive centre ?

Cheers

 

[cerich]

As a matter of interest what does a Dive Centre need to do to become a 5 star dive centre ?

Cheers

Haven't bothered to look in years