Suit filed in case of "Girl dead, boy injured at Glacier National Park

[boulderjohn]

I would actually rather the agency take more control over their instructors, actually providing oversight of instructors, actually auditing and observing them performing instruction in the wild.

You mean the way the principals and assistant principals in a school building oversee the teachers in their buildings to ensure the high quality of teaching we expect in this country? Any estimates on what that would cost and how effective it would be?

But that would make the instructors “agents” of the agency, as I believe students are led to believe they are.

Yes, and it would mean a multimillion payout from the agency every time an instructor screws up. I suspect that there are agencies that could not afford that.

BTW, PADI requires all students in all classes to sign a statement saying they understand the instructor is not an agent of PADI.

 

[Wookie]

You mean the way the principals and assistant principals in a school building oversee the teachers in their buildings to ensure the high quality of teaching we expect in this country? Any estimates on what that would cost and how effective it would be?

Yes, and it would mean a multimillion payout from the agency every time an instructor screws up. I suspect that there are agencies that could not afford that.

BTW, PADI requires all students in all classes to sign a statement saying they understand the instructor is not an agent of PADI.

And that’s the whole point, I guess, when we really drill down to it. The instructor isn’t an agent of PADI, and therefore there is no oversight of recreational scuba diving. There should be.

I didn’t know principals and assistant principals were supposed to oversee teachers. Do they do this in the classroom? I always thought that they were administrators, and that teachers were pretty autonomous in their instruction. I don’t really remember seeing a principal or vice principal in the classroom, but I applaud this initiative.

 

[formernuke]

True they deny it but look at the system. Definitely seems to act like an agency to me

 

[cerich]

BTW, PADI requires all students in all classes to sign a statement saying they understand the instructor is not an agent of PADI.

I will be shocked if that holds

 

[boulderjohn]

I didn’t know principals and assistant principals were supposed to oversee teachers. Do they do this in the classroom? I always thought that they were administrators, and that teachers were pretty autonomous in their instruction. I don’t really remember seeing a principal or vice principal in the classroom, but I applaud this initiative.

Initiative?

You are truly separated from educational reality. Principals and assistant principals have been responsible for overseeing and evaluating teachers in the classroom throughout the history of this country. It is required by law in every state. The fact that you don't know this shows how ineffective it is. The teacher evaluation system is enormously expensive and time consuming, going far, far, far beyond anything remotely possible in scuba, and yet we still have truly crappy teachers in nearly every school in this country.

 

[Wookie]

Initiative?

You are truly separated from educational reality. Principals and assistant principals have been responsible for overseeing and evaluating teachers in the classroom throughout the history of this country. It is required by law in every state. The fact that you don't know this shows how ineffective it is. The teacher evaluation system is enormously expensive and time consuming, going far, far, far beyond anything remotely possible in scuba, and yet we still have truly crappy teachers in nearly every school in this country.

Why would I care about elementary or secondary education? Last time I was in school was 1981. I have no children or grandchildren. I just pay taxes and watch my friends teaching at JeffCo retire with full pensions at 52 years of age. Good work if you could get it I guess.

 

[boulderjohn]

My point was that scuba cannot hope to match the observation and evaluation processes of education, and yet we still have crappy teachers. The idea that scuba agencies could ever eliminate bad instructors is simply unrealistic.

For those instructors employed by a dive shop, they could do a pretty good job if they were so inclined. They can easily watch what their instructors do and act accordingly. So why are there crappy instructors in those shops? Because those instructors are acting under their direction and dong what those shops actually want. If the agency tells the instructors to do one thing and the person signing their checks says the opposite, what are they going to do?

 

[Wookie]

My point was that scuba cannot hope to match the observation and evaluation processes of education, and yet we still have crappy teachers. The idea that scuba agencies could ever eliminate bad instructors is simply unrealistic.

For those instructors employed by a dive shop, they could do a pretty good job if they were so inclined. They can easily watch what their instructors do and act accordingly. So why are there crappy instructors in those shops? Because those instructors are acting under their direction and dong what those shops actually want. If the agency tells the instructors to do one thing and the person signing their checks says the opposite, what are they going to do?

Sure. And Gull Dive was operating under the watchful eye of PADI?

So someone who “could” have provided recognized oversight apparently didn’t. So should they have? In your opinion, with all that we know, we know that the training agency does not consider either the dive shop or the instructor to be an agent of the agency, we know that the training agency collects fees from both the dive shop as well as the instructor for membership at various levels, but we don’t know if a retail customer assumes that that dive shop operates in accordance with terms of their agreement with the training agency, but we now know that the training agency, even if they discover a violation of that agreement, won’t do anything about it, because neither the instructor nor the dive shop is an agent of the agency.

Do I have that right? Am I making sense, or am I out in outer space somewhere?

 

[boulderjohn]

we now know that the training agency, even if they discover a violation of that agreement, won’t do anything about it, because neither the instructor nor the dive shop is an agent of the agency.

As I read that letter, they have been informed that something might be up with that shop and they might want to look into it. Where does it say that they have discovered a violation and won't do anything about it? What happened after this letter was sent?

From other cases, we know that they regularly suspend or expel instructors and shops who are in violation. Every issue of the Undersea Journal lists the most recent expulsions. There is a list of dive centers that are no longer associated with them.

 

[Wookie]

As I read that letter, they have been informed that something might be up with that shop and they might want to look into it. Where does it say that they have discovered a violation and won't do anything about it? What happened after this letter was sent?

From other cases, we know that they regularly suspend or expel instructors and shops who are in violation. Every issue of the Undersea Journal lists the most recent expulsions. There is a list of dive centers that are no longer associated with them.

You are correct, we have no idea what actions they took, if any.

What would happen in a Colorado high school if the Principal heard that a biology teacher was teaching creationism?