GUE Fundamentals

[SpeedyJ]

Their philosophy doesn't apply. Or I should say most divers reject it.

It does t make it wrong just not applicable

You keep saying it doesn't apply or isn't applicable to the vast majority of diving, but that just doesn't seem true. The semantics here matter, given this is a new divers forum. It would be a shame for someone to get the wrong idea about an organization that may be of interest to them in expanding their diving experience and opportunities.

Can the vast majority of dives be executed...

• In a team based approach instead of solo? Answer: Yes
• With a breathing gas END not exceeding 100' / 30M? Answer: Yes
• Using a backmounted single or double tank, BP&W with primary donate? Answer: Yes

It's not that GUEs approach doesn't work across the vast majority of dives, it's that some divers decide they want to dive outside the parameters GUE's Standard Operating Procedures. As you've pointed out, that's okay, live and let dive, but as I see it, GUE's approach to diving is as easily applied to open water diving as it is to cave or technical diving.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You keep saying it doesn't apply or isn't applicable to the vast majority of diving, but that just doesn't seem true. The semantics here matter, given this is a new divers forum. It would be a shame for someone to get the wrong idea about an organization that may be of interest to them in expanding their diving experience and opportunities.

Can the vast majority of dives be executed...

• In a team based approach instead of solo? Answer: Yes

There's the most common option: buddy diving. People don't learn to dive as a time in the vast majority of cases. And actually no. The number of people who solo dive is likely greater than the number of GUE divers out there.

• With a breathing gas END not exceeding 100' / 30M? Answer: Yes

Actually no. Most (all?) the deep diver courses are breathing air to 130'/40meters. I'm surprised you didn't no that

• Using a backmounted single or double tank, BP&W with primary donate? Answer: Yes

And most dive a jacket style BCD (not my preference). But this is a general tech thing, not exclusive to GUE.

It's not that GUEs approach doesn't work across the vast majority of dives, it's that some divers decide they want to dive outside the parameters GUE's Standard Operating Procedures. As you've pointed out, that's okay, live and let dive, but as I see it, GUE's approach to diving is as easily applied to open water diving as it is to cave or technical diving.

Come on. Most divers dive outside the parameters defined in GUE's SOP.

I never said anything that it cannot be applied, just as I said in my previous statements, the vast majority of divers do not follow a significant portion of GUE's SOP. Again, that doesn't mean GUE's SOP is bad. It isn't. It is optimized for far more serious dives than most will do. There can be issues with it, where accessing an entry point is foolishly dangerous in a twinset on one's back.

 

[Tracy]

I never said anything that it cannot be applied, just as I said in my previous statements, the vast majority of divers do not follow a significant portion of GUE's SOP. Again, that doesn't mean GUE's SOP is bad. It isn't. It is optimized for far more serious dives than most will do. There can be issues with it, where accessing an entry point is foolishly dangerous in a twinset on one's back.

Where does GUE advocate using a twinset for dives that shouldn't be done in a twinset?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Where does GUE advocate using a twinset for dives that shouldn't be done in a twinset?

and what dives would those be?

 

[SpeedyJ]

I never said anything that it cannot be applied, just as I said in my previous statements, the vast majority of divers do not follow a significant portion of GUE's SOP. Again, that doesn't mean GUE's SOP is bad. It isn't. It is optimized for far more serious dives than most will do. There can be issues with it, where accessing an entry point is foolishly dangerous in a twinset on one's back.

Their philosophy doesn't apply. Or I should say most divers reject it.

It does t make it wrong just not applicable

My issue has been with your use of the word apply/applicable. As I see it, nothing GUE does is "inapplicable" in the generic open water setting. GUE's standardized gear configuration, team or "buddy" oriented diving protocols, and gas choices all apply just as well in open water as they do in a cave or a deep cold wreck.

It's also worth addressing your comments about the SOP somehow mandating that a diver take a twinset above other safety concerns. I don't think you'd find a single GUE instructor advocating for that, instead you'd likely find they'd advocate for thinking through and applying strategies to minimize risk. I'm not familiar with the dive site you're talking about, so I'll refrain from making assumptions.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

My issue has been with your use of the word apply/applicable. As I see it, nothing GUE does is "inapplicable" in the generic open water setting. GUE's standardized gear configuration, team or "buddy" oriented diving protocols, and gas choices all apply just as well in open water as they do in a cave or a deep cold wreck.

You are making a mountain out of the molehill. How about this clarification. Many of GUE's SOP does not apply to many diver's preferences.

Happy now? As this back and forth is beyond ridiculous.

Despite that fact, I recommend fundies (or similar) to every single diver who hasn't taken it. I know some seasoned cave divers across the border who found it beneficial, as while they didn't need the skills (unlike most divers), for them the discipline was helpful. People get annoyed that I recommend fundies so much (like I've received DMs telling me to stop - I'll stop when the majority of the industry doesn't suffer from rectal-cranial inversion)

It's also worth addressing your comments about the SOP somehow mandating that a diver take a twinset above other safety concerns. I don't think you'd find a single GUE instructor advocating for that, instead you'd likely find they'd advocate for thinking through and applying strategies to minimize risk. I'm not familiar with the dive site you're talking about, so I'll refrain from making assumptions.

Please show me where I said GUE SOP mandates the use of a twinset. The fact is, you cannot take fundies in sidemount. You cannot take their sidemount course until after cave 2. There are dives in open water where conditions are more suited to sidemount due to the difficulty of access.

If you are ever in Washington state, I'll happily take you to Octopus Hole where we can do a T1 dive.

 

[drrich2]

There are essentially two rigid points about this course (what some people here call "koolaid"):
1 - equipment configuration; you need to do it back-mount (double or single), and you must have a back-plate with a wing. Some restrictions as well related to regulators and dry-suit. You must have a long hose. NO restriction AT ALL about brands! (some people think you need to have halcyon equipment -> this is FALSE!)
2 - procedures are taught to be consistent with any higher level of diving. For instance, you will learn to do a valve drill that is precisely the same as the valve drill of any hypoxic-trained GUE diver, any GUE full cave diver, any GUE rebreather diver, etc. The same is true for S-drill, SMB deployment, etc. Because of that, some procedures may look rigid (in my opinion, they aren't, but some people think so...)

It's about team diving and personal skills.

Doubt I'll ever had occasion to take the course, but for those researching it who run across this thread (plus I'm curious), I'd like clarification on some things.

1.) For someone seeking a recreational pass, with intend to only dive recreationally, as long as he's got a BP/W BCD and his regulator is set up with a long hose for primary donate, is that all the gear mandated? Anything else goes?

2.) When I see GUE Fundamentals lauded on ScubaBoard, or sought after, it's nearly always in terms of enhancing personal dive skills. I'm aware GUE is big on the 'team diving' approach, but that's not the reason I see most people seeking it out.

So, how much 'team' content is involved in the course? If a solo diver, or other diver with no expectation of diving with other GUE divers and a fairly lax view on the buddy system, how much team content would he have to slog through?

3.) In real world personal diving long after the course, what things change about your recreational diving? Buoyancy control and finning techniques, judging from what's been posted, but what else? Are there things they teach that most people let fall by the wayside in diving?

I'm asking my questions in an effort to get a sense of how 2 potentially competing agendas come together; what the student diver wishes to learn, and what GUE wants them to learn. There's probably a lot of overlap, but maybe not total?

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Doubt I'll ever had occasion to take the course, but for those researching it who run across this thread (plus I'm curious), I'd like clarification on some things.

1.) For someone seeking a recreational pass, with intend to only dive recreationally, as long as he's got a BP/W BCD and his regulator is set up with a long hose for primary donate, is that all the gear mandated? Anything else goes?

blade fins, orally inflatable DSMB with spool, canister light with hard Goodman handle (many people borrow one).

2.) When I see GUE Fundamentals lauded on ScubaBoard, or sought after, it's nearly always in terms of enhancing personal dive skills. I'm aware GUE is big on the 'team diving' approach, but that's not the reason I see most people seeking it out.

I see it as learning about diving in a team, how to cooperate, positioning etc.

The value to me is the skills.

So, how much 'team' content is involved in the course? If a solo diver, or other diver with no expectation of diving with other GUE divers and a fairly lax view on the buddy system, how much team content would he have to slog through?

Its mixed in throughout the course. From surface swimming together as a team, descending together facing each other in a circle (unless in a current, then into a current), positioning in the water to stay together.

3.) In real world personal diving long after the course, what things change about your recreational diving? Buoyancy control and finning techniques, judging from what's been posted, but what else? Are there things they teach that most people let fall by the wayside in diving?,

Again for me, it is the skills for efficient diving: trim, proper weighting, controlled ascents/descents, task loading for ascents.

I'm asking my questions in an effort to get a sense of how 2 potentially competing agendas come together; what the student diver wishes to learn, and what GUE wants them to learn. There's probably a lot of overlap, but maybe not total?

Fundies was developed by AG because GUE was forced to address insufficient skillset so often in GUE's tech courses. It is probably one of the biggest events in scuba training history and quality skills were objective and standardized. There isn't that much wiggle room for "mastery".

If a student doesn't care about team diving but does care about skills (which should be eveyrone), they will benefit enormously from the course. Down the line if they ever change their mind and get into technical diving, they at least have some exposure to team diving.

I wish all dive agencies required something like GUE fundies rec passes for all recreational dive pros, tech passes for tech instructors. It is pretty abysmal what I see there for tech instruction in my area more often than not.

 

[drrich2]

...canister light with hard Goodman handle (many people borrow one).

Thanks. Of all you shared, this is the one thing I balk at. It's my understanding GUE's genesis was caught up in reducing the fatality rate in regional cave diving, but at the recreational dive level (which is as far as most of us ever go), many divers won't dive caves or do substantial wreck penetrations or other overhead diving (aside from swim-throughs and guide-led dives through very benign wrecks like the Kittiwake in Grand Cayman).

What does the average recreational diver mainly diving tropical and/or other high viz. locations need a canister light?

 

[Divin'Papaw]

What does the average recreational diver mainly diving tropical and/or other high viz. locations need a canister light?

Easy. They don’t.