Qualifications of a DM

[boulderjohn]

...and for the other side of what I was writing earlier...

When teaching OW classes and getting to the dive planning portions, I have several times had students tell me that their experienced diving friends had told them that once the class was over, they could forget all the dive planning stuff, because in "the real world," all the planning is done by DMs.

For many people that is true for most if not all of their diving. In their OW classes, following a DM is not even mentioned. The class materials and requirements are designed to teach you to plan and execute your dive as a buddy team. In fact, that is exactly the final requirement of the current PADI OW class--plan and execute a dive as part of a buddy team. Give divers a few years of having the DMs set up their gear for them, plan the dive for them, and lead the dive for them, and they will have entered a state of learned helplessness, where they have indeed forgotten all of that stuff from OW class.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Personally, I think it's a-ok for folks to follow a guide or dive master as a safety net. I did. It was nice to have someone there while I was developing skills and competency. Many divers only dive once a year and really don't have the luxury of practicing enough to gain the confidence to be completely on their own with such limited diving. If you're more comfortable with a safety net, go for it.

Yeah, but the distinction I was trying to make is that it can be a false safety net. There have been numerous threads debating whether it's a prudent decision to do a particular dive when the decision rests on your belief that you can rely on a DM to "save you" if something happens. If you wouldn't do the dive without a DM there to supposedly save you, I would call that relying on the DM as a safety net. However, if you are reasonably confident you could handle what the dive may throw at you without a DM, and you merely find the presence of the DM "comforting," then I wouldn't call that relying on the DM as a safety net.

If you'd prefer to be left on your own to go find cool stuff, go for it (assuming your dive is set up for that sort of autonomy). No harm, no foul. As the kids say, "you do you".

I almost always stick with the DM in group dives for exactly the reasons mentioned. The DM knows where to find the cool stuff AND get us back to the boat (and on schedule). But if I were to get separated from the group, as has happened at least once I can recall, I'm confident I could finish the dive safely.

 

[TMHeimer]

A divemaster should certainly be able to advise a diver how to do an appropriate weight check and understand the variables around it.

For sure. That takes about 10 minutes of learning how to do it and another 5 showing others.
Yet, we get all sorts of weight questions on SB.

 

[TMHeimer]

I very much agree with @Angelo Farina , I actually prefer term "dive professional" instead of DM, DG or instructor. In real world, this person will carry the responsibility of all customers on board, at the surface and underwater as well as customer relations and satisfaction. They will know how to read the weather, tides, currents, assess each customers' skill set, will do specific dive plan for each buddy team and ensure that they will dive safely. They will give feedback and tips to customers on how they can improve. They will jump in the current, bad weather, bad viz and locate a wreck or a lost anchor, tie the boat onto a wreck or reef, recover the anchor, fix the equipment, fix the toilette, fix the outboard engine, take decisions that will affect everyones safety.. Just to name few things they would have to do.. How can you be proficient with all these with 60 or 100 dives? If we take 10 000 hr rule for mastering something, how long should one to be working to be called DiveMaster?

You have to work in the field to become a dive professional. And yes, one has to start somewhere as well, you are not born into it, there will always be beginners as well as mistakes. I consider couple of years full time experience with 1000 dives and 1-200 certifications in different locations being a good indicator that you are no longer a beginner. Amateur hobby instructors and divemasters are mainstay of the industry as they also promote it and contribute to the growth and some quite capable but the fact is, you have to do it a lot and continuous to became a Master and this will take very long time for them.

When I worked in overseas, there were very few local (I mean several locations) instructors and official DMs available, for a very simple reason, there were not enough translated material for professional levels, heck, there was not even AOWD manual available for them to read in their own language. They obviously struggled to get past the written exams despite they had enormous experience. This has changed over the years, as material became available to locals as well thus, more and more professionals hold instructor or dm c-card as well.

Dive professional IMO means someone making money.....
When I mention I made $300 CAD doing OW courses here people say WOW! How many DMs or
"dive professionals" make a salary? Who's gunna DO THAT?
The stuff you describe seems like what people expect of school teachers. The only difference being that when I retired in 1996 I was almost making 60K CAD! Not the $300 I made for 2 weekends as a DM.

To be honest, I'm not doing thousands of hours to get a minimum wage job! And I was lucky that my shop paid us basically minimum wage.

Work for TIPS....!!!!????

 

[Centrals]

I dive in South East Asia and Taiwan. I have found local guides to be quite excellent divers mostly. A lot of them have 10,000 - 15,000 dives. The DM's in SEA I have found not so good as those people who came on their Asian Sojourn and decided to try diving. Then then go on with getting to DM and instructor in the shortest possible time without buildup of years of experience who are in fact not very good divers. They have the bling but very little experience.

I could not remember the last time that I had dived with an non local DG over last 10yrs in SE Asia. AFAIK, very very difficult for an foreigner to obtain a working permit as dive guide in Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines. Koh Tao could well be the only place that I can think of that offer employment.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I could not remember the last time that I had dived with an non local DG over last 10yrs in SE Asia. AFAIK, very very difficult for an foreigner to obtain a working permit as dive guide in Indonesia, Malaysia and Philippines. Koh Tao could well be the only place that I can think of that offer employment.

Yes for DM work permits near impossible to get. That's why some places offer "internships" It's quite possible for instructors to get work permits however I met many who worked as instructors without work permits.

 

[Seaweed Doc]

It's interesting how much of this thread focuses on just one function of the DM, guiding tourist dives on tropical boats. I DM'd for a year and a half (very part time) and never did this. Around here, DMs are critical for safety in classes. Occasionally they'll guide divers new to the area.

The last class I taught had very low viz from 0 to 20 feet, low viz to 30 feet, and 25 foot viz deeper. Three students, me as instructor, another instructor acting as DM, and a DM candidate. The DM was critical to keeping track of each student as we moved through the murk to deeper water. My DMC was awesome as well, herding sheep from behind.

Similarly, if one student bolts for the surface, the DM either intervenes or brings the rest of the group up with him. Or if one student can't continue, they can be taken to shore by the DM.

 

[scubaozy]

Dive professional IMO means someone making money.....
When I mention I made $300 CAD doing OW courses here people say WOW! How many DMs or
"dive professionals" make a salary? Who's gunna DO THAT?
The stuff you describe seems like what people expect of school teachers. The only difference being that when I retired in 1996 I was almost making 60K CAD! Not the $300 I made for 2 weekends as a DM.

To be honest, I'm not doing thousands of hours to get a minimum wage job! And I was lucky that my shop paid us basically minimum wage.

Work for TIPS....!!!!????

If diving is your main source of income, in other words you are paying your rent and feeding your family, you are a dive professional. When filling forms, if you enter "teacher" or "retired" into "profession" field, you are obviously not a dive professional. How the salaries are paid are mostly country/business and role specific. In many places tips also play a big role.

It's interesting how much of this thread focuses on just one function of the DM, guiding tourist dives on tropical boats. I DM'd for a year and a half (very part time) and never did this. Around here, DMs are critical for safety in classes. Occasionally they'll guide divers new to the area.

Agree but once a diver is past basic training they do not anymore deal with a DM as a training assistant. Only exposure thereafter is DM as a dive guide, so I suppose it is natural that role is being discussed a bit more. I also agree that in bad viz, DM role in training is more pronounced.

 

[El Diablo]

After we had multiple discussions in the past and just recently in this thread:
I f*** up and I am ashamed
i want to pick this topic up.

I think its not new, that there are DM´s out there, which are poorly training. Without any diving knowlede, byciclekicks and just overall danger to themself or the customers.
I saw fresh DMs, worse then OWD students.

I dont like the idea of putting the dive limits higher. because 1. dive logs can be faked(and are faked!) and 2. i saw many DM´s with 60-100 dives which are just great. And i saw DM´s with hundreds of dives, which were just bad.

So in my opinion hard limits like #of dives or total underwater time wont fix the issue.
I think there should be a in water test. Without skills(or just some skills for taskloading?)
Before registering for the DM course, there should be a general check dive, which can only be passed, when diving safely and good enough to fokus on other stuff(eg. customer), instead of own bouyancy.

whats your opinion? You got experience with bad DMs`? how is it possible to fix the problem?(in theorie..)

DM here, I consider that question too generic and complex to get a simple answer.

When I dive abroad as a customer, I've also experienced bad DM's AND even worse BAD INSTRUCTORS... how do you fix those? Question is: are those bad DMs a sub product of having bad teachers? Aren't bad divers a result of bad Instructors?

IMO, the problem derives from the Diving institutions themselves. Getting certified as a Padi DM / Instructor (in Greece at least) is much easier than passing the corresponding tests in CMAS. Marketing / Retail oriented organizations will always certify divers quicker in order to make more money. Its sad as lives get lost stupidly but true.

To give you another example, my wife got certified as an SSI AOW Diver last summer. When the dive center saw my credentials they literally NEVER gave her any classes, I took care of all her dives, the theory and the execution and the DI only certified her after we paid (with a nice discount). Maybe he thought / saw that I was good at it OR simply he couldn't care less...

Also, I dove the Thistlegorm many years ago and I saw OWD with absolutely no experience been thrown in the water like sheep just to make money... running out of air upon touching the wreck and coming up like a balloon in panic while other unexperienced divers were left at depth alone waiting for the DM / DI to return,,, what about those?

As long as there's money involved, the only thing we can really do IMO is to be as professional as possible during the certification phase. By that I mean an honest assessment of one's skills and if not at the desire level, spend a (logical) time trying to improve them. Lives should be taken more seriously.

ps. No wanting to offend any PADI professionals. I started with PADI myself and for sure being a PADI DM /DI is still no easy task.

 

[Centrals]

Yes for DM work permits near impossible to get. That's why some places offer "internships" It's quite possible for instructors to get work permits however I met many who worked as instructors without work permits.

The time that foreigners could easily find a job after the initial training is NO longer the true.
Instructors who work without permits are most likely the chinese/Korean working for their own nationals.
You were talking dive guide in the beginning and now instructor?