Qualifications of a DM

[Centrals]

In SE Asia you are unlikely to find many places that will let you dive without a guide. I have done it few times before but that were limited to the easy house reef just off the resort.

I know what kind of sea fan that pygmy sea-horse likely to be but I would have absolutely no chance to know where to find the particular sea fan without local expertise. Harlequin shrimp is another one and there are plenty more.

BTW, most dive guides(DG) in SE Asia are unlikely to have DM qualification. Far too expensive for the local.

 

[SlugLife]

Dive professional IMO means someone making money.....
When I mention I made $300 CAD doing OW courses here people say WOW! How many DMs or
"dive professionals" make a salary? Who's gunna DO THAT?
The stuff you describe seems like what people expect of school teachers. The only difference being that when I retired in 1996 I was almost making 60K CAD! Not the $300 I made for 2 weekends as a DM.

To be honest, I'm not doing thousands of hours to get a minimum wage job! And I was lucky that my shop paid us basically minimum wage.

Work for TIPS....!!!!????

As I mentioned much earlier in this thread, we need realistic expectations. The majority of dive-professionals these days make so little money they're effectively working for free. Diving is another one of those professions, where there are enough people who love doing it enough they'd do it for almost-free, that companies are more than will exploit that. Many things within scuba are expensive from a customer-perspective, but I'm pretty sure only the dive-agencies are sitting comfortable. I totally get why, because I've even considered the idea of being an instructor-assistant for free, given my day-job pays many times what I could ever hope to earn in SCUBA. Except, there's no chance I'm going to make someone else money off my free labor.

I think maybe something I'd like to see a little more of, which might help both those who are in it "for the love," and those who want to learn, is dive-tutoring. At minimum, no middle-man is taking a cut. Something I might do when I am more experienced though, is offer nearly-free tutoring, for just the cost of my expenses like tank-fills.

edit: Based on some brief research, it appears the "e-learning" portion of classes is approximately half the cost of many classes. The remaining half is divided between the dive-shop and the instructor(s).

 

[scubaozy]

IMO, the problem derives from the Diving institutions themselves. Getting certified as a Padi DM / Instructor (in Greece at least) is much easier than passing the corresponding tests in CMAS. Marketing / Retail oriented organizations will always certify divers quicker in order to make more money. Its sad as lives get lost stupidly but true.

Meh, CMAS in southern Europe are mostly connected to corresponding national sports federations, PADI in those regions are less corruptible as instructor examiner comes from the headquarters, often from another country.

 

[El Diablo]

Meh, CMAS in southern Europe are mostly connected to corresponding national sports federations, PADI in those regions are less corruptible as instructor examiner comes from the headquarters, often from another country.

Well I have a very different opinion and experience.

CMAS is indeed a Federation, that's why things are not so monetized. PADI is the most commercial institute of them all, I've never mentioned anything about 'corruptible instructors', only that PADI certifies easier divers than other organizations.
I've worked with PADI, CMAS and SSI, can't speak for NAUI and others.

Are you a PADI DM / DI?

 

[Capt. Bas]

It's interesting how much of this thread focuses on just one function of the DM, guiding tourist dives on tropical boats. I DM'd for a year and a half (very part time) and never did this. Around here, DMs are critical for safety in classes. Occasionally they'll guide divers new to the area.

The last class I taught had very low viz from 0 to 20 feet, low viz to 30 feet, and 25 foot viz deeper. Three students, me as instructor, another instructor acting as DM, and a DM candidate. The DM was critical to keeping track of each student as we moved through the murk to deeper water. My DMC was awesome as well, herding sheep from behind.

Similarly, if one student bolts for the surface, the DM either intervenes or brings the rest of the group up with him. Or if one student can't continue, they can be taken to shore by the DM.

This is exactly the way I'm being trained at the moment.
To be the assistant, background safety operator and secondary the guide for the tours during the classes.
This can be related to may day job. Working nearly 20y at chemical tankers gives you a few set of extra eyes and safety awareness. (not always liked by the family as I'm always see the safety issues and try to act on them. )
The instructor can focus on training and I'm making sure all students are safe underwater.

 

[scubaozy]

Well I have a very different opinion and experience.

CMAS is indeed a Federation, that's why things are not so monetized. PADI is the most commercial institute of them all, I've never mentioned anything about 'corruptible instructors', only that PADI certifies easier divers than other organizations.
I've worked with PADI, CMAS and SSI, can't speak for NAUI and others.

Are you a PADI DM / DI?

I see no difference, CMAS, Barrakuda, VDST, PADI, SDI, SSI ..... all give training and issue certifications for money, have dedicated dive centers, nothing is for free.. If somebody passes a course easier, this is corruption, and this is what you wrote as far as I understood ("Getting certified as a Padi DM / Instructor (in Greece at least) is much easier than passing the corresponding tests in CMAS"). Or do you mean CMAS courses are harder? CMAS training and standards depth limits are not even consistent among countries/federations. It is much more likely that you will get different standards for a cmas p3 course in France vs Greece. I am both padi and cmas qualified and am extremely annoyed with A vs. B conversations.

 

[markmud]

I have read the replies to Kimela's point and I agree with most of them.

I have my own reason for following a DG/DM: I am lazy!

Baaaa. Baaaaa.

Hi Kimela, I like diving with a DM for the same reasons you mentioned. @boulderjohn and @Lorenzoid had other reasons that fit my profile exactly. @drrich2's post on navigation is an issue but not for the reasons he stated as I am a very good navigator. I have proven that both above and below the surface for decades.

I like diving with a guide because I like diving LAZY!

I know my wife's fins very well. When we splash, I take a mental picture of the DM's fins.

I enjoy poking around the holes, crevices, and other hiding places for critters and geological features; my flashlight is strapped to my wrist and I use it often. I may be head down in a hole (vertical), or I may be upside down in a small cavern (overhang). When I am done checking things out, I scan for my wife's fins and the DM's fins. I then swim to keep up with them. I am not navigating, I am not keeping track of other divers, I am not maintaining a mental DR on a "mental chart" for our location, I am focused on looking for stuff. It is relaxing and worthwhile. Sometimes I do a barrel role or helicopter 360 to check-out the other divers. I like hanging out in the group with no worries or responsibilities.

@boulderjohn 's post #69 is one of the best reasons for diving with a guide who has local knowledge.

@Chavodel8en 's post #66 is right-on and I have been in that situation more than once.

I believe that I owe the group to follow the leader's pace and location. Being the lone-wolf and "leading" the group from behind is not ethical. Are lone-wolves displaying a form of passive aggressive behavior when "leading from behind"? Controlling, maybe?

As for @Pete's post quoted in Kimela's post, he is right as I believe his context was dependent divers who believe the DM will keep them safe and solve any problems they may have. I believe Pete knows that there are many good reasons for joining a guided dive.

@Kimela wrote: "Personally, I think it's a-ok for folks to follow a guide or dive master as a safety net."

I think that is OK as long as the dependent diver makes an agreement with the DM. The DM should know in advance that he/she is babysitting. I followed the DM and emulated them early on. They were usually the best divers in our group and had the most to teach me. I learned by watching them. However, I was not mentally DEPENDENT on them for my safety.

cheers,
m

 

[VikingDives]

I like well guided dives because I think they add value when I'm unfamiliar with a site. I also like diving and hanging out with other DMs and instructors. Every trip I've taken has put me in contact with a pro who taught me something that I use. When I was an open water diver, it was "Oh, I want to dive like that." (Horizontal and neutral). More recently, it's been tips on how to rig a dive site marker - fill the marker with material that floats, so when your marker leaks, it still floats. That seems sensible, but it isn't something I think about because it isn't part of my day to day diving.

I see no difference, CMAS, Barrakuda, VDST, PADI, SDI, SSI ..... all give training and issue certifications... I am both padi and cmas qualified and am extremely annoyed with A vs. B conversations.

There are differences though. I teach for PADI and SDI, and PADI requires much more emphasis on snorkeling for their DMcs. PADI also requires more "skills" like a gear exchange. SDI, on the other hand, requires all of the academic work for a pro to be mastered as a DM (and it's pretty extensive). PADI doesn't teach things like dive physics and physiology until you get to the instructor level courses. I wish I'd taken the SDI DM course before I took my IE, as the material was better than what I received in my PADI IDC.

Who's more qualified? I guess it depends on your point of view. PADI DMs can teach a lot more (snorkeling/discover scuba). SDI DMs are just dive guides or in water assistants who have more academics under their belt when they graduate.

 

[scubaozy]

I like well guided dives because I think they add value when I'm unfamiliar with a site. I also like diving and hanging out with other DMs and instructors. Every trip I've taken has put me in contact with a pro who taught me something that I use. When I was an open water diver, it was "Oh, I want to dive like that." (Horizontal and neutral). More recently, it's been tips on how to rig a dive site marker - fill the marker with material that floats, so when your marker leaks, it still floats. That seems sensible, but it isn't something I think about because it isn't part of my day to day diving.



There are differences though. I teach for PADI and SDI, and PADI requires much more emphasis on snorkeling for their DMcs. PADI also requires more "skills" like a gear exchange. SDI, on the other hand, requires all of the academic work for a pro to be mastered as a DM (and it's pretty extensive). PADI doesn't teach things like dive physics and physiology until you get to the instructor level courses. I wish I'd taken the SDI DM course before I took my IE, as the material was better than what I received in my PADI IDC.

Who's more qualified? I guess it depends on your point of view. PADI DMs can teach a lot more (snorkeling/discover scuba). SDI DMs are just dive guides or in water assistants who have more academics under their belt when they graduate.

Sure, trainings have all differences, even within the same organisation, I think this is also what I wrote. I think I could not communicate well, I am referring to monetization; "I see no difference in monetization, CMAS, Barrakuda, VDST, PADI, SDI, SSI ..... all give training and issue certifications for money, have dedicated dive centers, nothing is for free".

 

[El Diablo]

I see no difference, CMAS, Barrakuda, VDST, PADI, SDI, SSI ..... all give training and issue certifications for money, have dedicated dive centers, nothing is for free.. If somebody passes a course easier, this is corruption, and this is what you wrote as far as I understood ("Getting certified as a Padi DM / Instructor (in Greece at least) is much easier than passing the corresponding tests in CMAS"). Or do you mean CMAS courses are harder? CMAS training and standards depth limits are not even consistent among countries/federations. It is much more likely that you will get different standards for a cmas p3 course in France vs Greece. I am both padi and cmas qualified and am extremely annoyed with A vs. B conversations.

I see... again, no mention of corruption from my side. Perhaps you don't understand the meaning of the word.
The Greek Diving Federation Ε.Ο.Υ.Δ.Α exams (part of CMAS) are much harder than PADI's, yes that's what I meant.

Not familiar with the French standards, I can only speak for Greek, Portuguese and Spanish. I worked with dive centers in those countries and the difference was quite big compared to the level required in Greece.

A vs B comparisons are inevitable if you want to speak about bad DMs. Bad DMs are a sub product of bad DIs and bad organizations. You are certified PADI and CMAS what, Instructor or Divemaster?