Why no weight pockets with doubles?

[seeker242]

No in other words people that make blanket statements like "heavy steel double should only be dived with dry suits" are usually F'd up.

There you go right there gramps. That is saying if a person does not want to rely on a dual bladder or bag, then they are F'd up...You evidently have a little trouble comprehending such a concept. That's the same as saying, "if you don't dive my way, you're F'd up.."...

 

[wstorms]

@irycio to summarize a bit; the main reason you don't see ditchable weights with doubles too often is that a lot of people who use doubles (would like to) do technical dives often. With a technical dive, the risk of accidentally loosing weight (and therefore not being able to stop when you must) can outweigh the risks associated with being suddenly to heavy (for instance because of instant bc failure). It is a bit of a trade-of.
Probably the best way to mitigate being both over and under weight, is to have a "balanced rig". This means that you have your set up exactly so you can:
- without using your bc, stay at the surface while wearing all kit, by just a bit more than your typical normal breath hold.
- descent slowly (no need to drop like a brick) at the beginning of the dive by exhaling
- maintain a shallow stop with near empty cylinders without using your bc

If you are spot on, you don't really need to ditch weight in an emergency. Even if your bc fails, you still have time and you can prevent further sinking by a combination of breath control and swimming. During that timeyou can do stuff like shooting a liftbag or something like that. You don't need much lift and once you are positive, your buoyancy will only increase during your ascent (so you might actually have to release gas in order to slow down enough). With an alternative source of lift in place, you can breath more natural again and don't have to swim up as much. This allows you to take a bit of rest and control your ascent.

Some people need additional weight and it's quite common to "permanently" attach this. V weights, P weights etc are quite comfortable, and don't have the downside of pockets. fixed blocks on your harness are not so comfortable.

Other people (although less common) require more positive buoyancy to achieve a balanced rig. This can be done by wearing more neoprene, ticker under suits if using a drysuit, or swapping heavier pieces of equipment for lighter ones (use an alu plate instead of a ss one for example)

The DIR aspect is, for me at least, that pockets and quick releases like you often see (like I have on my pockets) are not strictly as simple or minimized as they can be, and they do have the risk of accidentally opening. Combined with the balanced rig, "complicated" pockets do not add value compared to a weight belt, and therefor, should be left out.
The argument against pockets in favor of the canister is still valid, although with progressing battery tech I think the canisters will shrink / disappear completely over time. With mine (baby canister) it is no issue to have a pocket AND canister on the right, but obviously this is still an issue from a "make sure you are able to share equipment during a big project" point of view, making pockets less ideal (again) in the DIR philosophy.

Having said all that, if you are dialed in and still using pockets on your plate, there is nothing wrong (obviously imho and assuming you are not doing some big hairy audacious project) with securing the pockets with zip ties. Everybody happy

 

[Angelo Farina]

@irycio Probably the best way to mitigate being both over and under weight, is to have a "balanced rig". This means that you have your set up exactly so you can:
- without using your bc, stay at the surface while wearing all kit, by just a bit more than your typical normal breath hold.
- descent slowly (no need to drop like a brick) at the beginning of the dive by exhaling
- maintain a shallow stop with near empty cylinders without using your bc

If you are spot on, you don't really need to ditch weight in an emergency. Even if your bc fails, you still have time and you can prevent further sinking by a combination of breath control and swimming.

What you describe is the exact way people was trained up to the end of the seventies.
There was no BCD.
The standard tank was 10+10 liters, steel. They were not very heavy underwater.
People was using a simple belt with 4 or 5 kg of lead. There were various ways allowing to detach and ditch them (more or less easily).
With such a well balanced setup people were diving down to 40m.
Without dry suit, without lifting bag, without any BCD.
Only your lungs and your fins.
It has been so for almost 30 years.Then around 1979 the first BCD did appear, and this changed the world.
I stll think that people should first learn diving that way, without BCD. That's how I did train my sons.
Then you add the BCD, which definirely is useful and adds some safety.
But people saying that you need two separate bladders for diving dounles are wrong. One bladder is plenty enough, considering that one should be able to make the same rec dive also without it.
Modern tech diving is another world, and I find it OT here, reading the original post.

 

[irycio]

@irycio to summarize a bit; the main reason you don't see ditchable weights with doubles too often is that a lot of people who use doubles (would like to) do technical dives often. With a technical dive, the risk of accidentally loosing weight (and therefore not being able to stop when you must) can outweigh the risks associated with being suddenly to heavy (for instance because of instant bc failure). It is a bit of a trade-of.
Probably the best way to mitigate being both over and under weight, is to have a "balanced rig". This means that you have your set up exactly so you can:
- without using your bc, stay at the surface while wearing all kit, by just a bit more than your typical normal breath hold.
- descent slowly (no need to drop like a brick) at the beginning of the dive by exhaling
- maintain a shallow stop with near empty cylinders without using your bc

If you are spot on, you don't really need to ditch weight in an emergency. Even if your bc fails, you still have time and you can prevent further sinking by a combination of breath control and swimming. During that timeyou can do stuff like shooting a liftbag or something like that. You don't need much lift and once you are positive, your buoyancy will only increase during your ascent (so you might actually have to release gas in order to slow down enough). With an alternative source of lift in place, you can breath more natural again and don't have to swim up as much. This allows you to take a bit of rest and control your ascent.

Some people need additional weight and it's quite common to "permanently" attach this. V weights, P weights etc are quite comfortable, and don't have the downside of pockets. fixed blocks on your harness are not so comfortable.

Other people (although less common) require more positive buoyancy to achieve a balanced rig. This can be done by wearing more neoprene, ticker under suits if using a drysuit, or swapping heavier pieces of equipment for lighter ones (use an alu plate instead of a ss one for example)

The DIR aspect is, for me at least, that pockets and quick releases like you often see (like I have on my pockets) are not strictly as simple or minimized as they can be, and they do have the risk of accidentally opening. Combined with the balanced rig, "complicated" pockets do not add value compared to a weight belt, and therefor, should be left out.
The argument against pockets in favor of the canister is still valid, although with progressing battery tech I think the canisters will shrink / disappear completely over time. With mine (baby canister) it is no issue to have a pocket AND canister on the right, but obviously this is still an issue from a "make sure you are able to share equipment during a big project" point of view, making pockets less ideal (again) in the DIR philosophy.

Having said all that, if you are dialed in and still using pockets on your plate, there is nothing wrong (obviously imho and assuming you are not doing some big hairy audacious project) with securing the pockets with zip ties. Everybody happy

Yay, a first fully meritorical post in a while, thanks for that I'm basically almost convinced of just ordering the doubles wing with a steel plate (not much difference between wing alone and the whole set), and then I won't need any additional weights anyway. I was mostly motivated to use the pockets as I find them more convenient that the belt and would then be able to reuse the alu plate. I have yet to check if such a rig will be balanced indeed, e.g. whether I can also swim it up from the depth in case of failure of both wing and drysuit, but I don't see what could prevent that.

 

[wstorms]

I'm basically almost convinced of just ordering the doubles wing with a steel plate (not much difference between wing alone and the whole set), and then I won't need any additional weights anyway.

I think you will love it

Modern tech diving is another world, and I find it OT here, reading the original post.

Well the reason I brought it up is that I *think* (no hard data) that most people diving doubles are doing so because they either:
- do technical dives
- want to do technical dives
- copy what others do and therefor (maybe even without knowing) mimic what technical divers do

So as to why you don't see doubles and pockets too often, it's probably because people with doubles are more likely inclined to technical dives than people with singles.

 

[AfterDark]

There you go right there gramps. That is saying if a person does not want to rely on a dual bladder or bag, then they are F'd up...You evidently have a little trouble comprehending such a concept. That's the same as saying, "if you don't dive my way, you're F'd up.."...

You fail reading comp. No where is what you claim implied in that quote, as anyone with any amount of reading comprehension can see. You prove my point thank you.

This has been a display of the ridged, intolerant, prevarications and unyielding adherence to the dogma of one style of diving brought to ya'll by AfterDark Productions Unlimited. Hope you all enjoyed and learned what wonderful representatives some DIR practitioners are for their style of diving.

Does it make any of you want to join their ranks? LOL!

 

[EireDiver606]

I'm aware, I teach technical courses.... but this is in a recreational subforum

That wasn't an insult dude. Just talking plainly. You're way more experienced than I am. Fair enough.

 

[EireDiver606]

Maybe for you more skill is required to dive dry. I don't see where it does. I've been diving dry suits since 1970something.

Having an extra gas pocket to manage makes it harder yes especially when it isnt in a small area like a wing. It has a large surface area as it covers your idea. No I dont find it hard to have good buoyancy in a drysuit but it is a fact that it is harder to control buoyancy with 2 gas pockets rather than 1.

Dont play the oh its harder? so you must be bad mentality. Its a fact.
You're obviously so perfect because youve been diving since 1970 so its not hard at all. that isnt the subject. its not about you and your 45 years of experience - no one gives a damn - youre not the subject.

 

[AfterDark]

Having an extra gas pocket to manage makes it harder yes especially when it isnt in a small area like a wing. It has a large surface area as it covers your idea. No I dont find it hard to have good buoyancy in a drysuit but it is a fact that it is harder to control buoyancy with 2 gas pockets rather than 1.

Dont play the oh its harder? so you must be bad mentality. Its a fact.
You're obviously so perfect because youve been diving since 1970 so its not hard at all. that isnt the subject. its not about you and your 45 years of experience - no one gives a damn - youre not the subject.

Well I will agree that almost anyone with 50+ experience in something can make it seem easy, but I don't think that's the case here. It is just easy.

 

[seeker242]

You fail reading comp. No where is what you claim implied in that quote, as anyone with any of reading comprehension can see. You prove my point thank you.

This has been a display of the ridged, intolerant, prevarications and unyielding adherence to the dogma of one style of diving brought to ya'll by AfterDark Productions Unlimited. Hope you all enjoyed and learned what wonderful representatives some DIR practitioners are for their style of diving.

Does it make any of you want to join their ranks? LOL!

You are the one who has failed reading comp. But that's understandable, cognitive decline is quite natural for old fogies, LOL!

If a person chooses to not use a dual baldder or bag, that's Fd up, that what you said. And why is that choice Fd up? Because it's not your way.... Doesn't take a genius to figure that out, LOL! But, it's ok that your brain cells are not working as good anymore, that's understandable.