The normalization of dives to 100 meters and beyond

[rjack321]

I have, but not a lot of them. All on OC.

I have a mix on OC and CCR. None actually below 100m. A few in the 75-95m range. If I were in warmer water I'd probably have more. Below about 65-70m just isnt as much fun honestly

 

[KenGordon]

Unfortunately, the OSHA compliant CCR doesn't exist, so any CCR instructors would have to be independent contractors so there isn't a employer-employee relationship.

OSHA requires:
eCCR only
Moisture monitors
Constant CO2 monitoring calibrated to within 10% of a CO2 concentration of 0.005 ATA or less
Duration based CO2 monitoring is acceptable but only under the EXACT conditions of the Mfg test (depth and temp)
Water temp and loop gas temp monitoring

This is interesting. What are the standards for non training dives? Imagine shooting Blue Planet without CCR.

In the U.K., being “at work” is what counts rather than being “employed”. This goes for a lot of safety stuff to avoid loopholes.

 

[sea_ledford]

This is interesting. What are the standards for non training dives? Imagine shooting Blue Planet without CCR.

In the U.K., being “at work” is what counts rather than being “employed”. This goes for a lot of safety stuff to avoid loopholes.

The only exceptions for OSHA regulations are scientific diving, recreational instruction and public safety diving (I think, there is one for PSD, not familiar with it though). If the dives that are being conducted aren't in one of those categories and there is an employment relationship, all OSHA regs must be followed. Of course they aren't because they are highly focused on surface supplied commercial diving and are completely asinine for situations outside of those confines, but that doesn't mean we aren't supposed to be following them. The fact that the rules were written by a commercial diving gear manufacturer doesn't help matters.

UK rules are completely different. I'm not knowledgeable enough to make any educated comments on it. I've seen a few presentations at AAUS conferences and figured out they are both more stringent and, at least at times, more appropriate that what we have in the US.

 

[markmud]

Maybe we can look at the concept of a support team from a different angle?

Things like space flight, test pilots and the deep french divers (video above? Or is some other recent thread) involved a very large "support team". The support team was not simply a passive role that people seem to consider the deep dive support divers to be. In these other activities the support team played a very active role well before the attempt was started. They helped define / refine procedures, discuss potential failure points, help decide risk mitigations, provided QA that process and procedures were being followed. An astronaut is simply 1 person in a very large team. They become the star, but they did not accomplish the goal by themselves. They could easily be replaced by a different astronaut.

These deep dives seem to ignore the need for a proper team? Think doctor deep...

Maybe utilizing a proper support team would have detected the Eagles Nest mistakes and stopped (or altered?) that dive?

Otherwise are these deep dives just Russian Roulette using scuba gear?

Hi JoeFriday,

I believe your post nailed it! Your description of a proper support team is right on. A few "safety divers" in the water is not a support team. A proper support team defines the goal of the mission, the scope of the mission, performs risk assessment and formalizes the assessment. It supports the diving operation before, during, and after.

The diver is actually just a team member. A team member who is not controlling the execution of the project.

As to your question regarding Russian Roulette: Yes, I believe performing dives to 330 feet and deeper is Russian Roulette using scuba gear. For most of these dives, the revolver has many more charge holes than a standard six-gun--the cylinder is very large.

Comparing this type of diving to flying on a commercial jetliner is a huge stretch. An airline traveler is much more likely to get hurt driving to the airport or navigating the parking lot on foot than actually getting hurt in a jetliner. Airline travel is very safe. I was slightly injured while travelling via the airlines--I was hit by a car in the airport parking garage while on foot.

If you are planning to dive to or beyond 330 ft in the future, I am happy for you. It is your chosen avocation. If I were King, you would have no expectation that a PSD, or anyone else, would perform risky dives to recover your body so your family could have a proper funeral.

I donated to a SAR fund for a diver. I decided to donate piecemeal and not go "all-in". After learning of the deviations that this diver had normalized in his own brain, I wished I had saved my money for a better cause. Nice guy, nice family, but he was a gambler.

Disclaimer: I am not a tech diver and don't plan on tech diving per se.

It is your life, risk it however you wish.

M

 

[W W Meixner]

Hi JoeFriday,

I believe your post nailed it! Your description of a proper support team is right on. A few "safety divers" in the water is not a support team. A proper support team defines the goal of the mission, the scope of the mission, performs risk assessment and formalizes the assessment. It supports the diving operation before, during, and after.

The diver is actually just a team member. A team member who is not controlling the execution of the project.

As to your question regarding Russian Roulette: Yes, I believe performing dives to 330 feet and deeper is Russian Roulette using scuba gear. For most of these dives, the revolver has many more charge holes than a standard six-gun--the cylinder is very large.

Comparing this type of diving to flying on a commercial jetliner is a huge stretch. An airline traveler is much more likely to get hurt driving to the airport or navigating the parking lot on foot than actually getting hurt in a jetliner. Airline travel is very safe. I was slightly injured while travelling via the airlines--I was hit by a car in the airport parking garage while on foot.

If you are planning to dive to or beyond 330 ft in the future, I am happy for you. It is your chosen avocation. If I were King, you would have no expectation that a PSD, or anyone else, would perform risky dives to recover your body so your family could have a proper funeral.

I donated to a SAR fund for a diver. I decided to donate piecemeal and not go "all-in". After learning of the deviations that this diver had normalized in his own brain, I wished I had saved my money for a better cause. Nice guy, nice family, but he was a gambler.

Disclaimer: I am not a tech diver and don't plan on tech diving per se.

It is your life, risk it however you wish.

M

MM...

Exactly...

I had a long discussion...with a recently deceased ''diving'' associate...some years back...about increased proficiency in this sport through experience and training...and a decrease in proficiency in this sport as we age...

With my feeling being that any diver...to use my current age as an example...who thinks he/she's as proficient at seventy...as they were at 40/50...is dreaming in Hi-Def...this like most sports is one of decreasing efficiency/proficiency as we age...plain and simple...

Applying ''limits'' as one may have had related to a previous decade is a recipe for disaster...

Kind of like...Sex...Drugs...and Rock-n-Roll...in my case...that means...a kiss from my lovely 79 year old wife...two Tylenol...and Rock 104.5...on low volume...

Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread...

Peace and Love...

Warren

 

[Rich Keller]

OSHA has no interest in your recreational activity.

I would suggest that you read what OSHA has to say on the subject. They have no authority here but they do have a very good idea of what they are talking about. If you think you know better then them and the divers they regulate then go for it.

 

[W W Meixner]

I would suggest that you read what OSHA has to say on the subject. They have no authority here but they do have a very good idea of what they are talking about. If you think you know better then them and the divers they regulate then go for it.

Rich...

In Canada...OHSA...strictly regulates commercial diving operations under the Occupational Health and Safety Act and a specific set of regulations...and safety of ''workers'' employed by diving operators/opertaions...under the same Act...as encompassed in the Provincial OHSA regulations governing ''Industrial Establishments''...

All ''Workers'' are covered by HS legislation...customers are protected through having the right to sue...and sue they do...with no interference from ''signed waivers...

Best...

W...