My journey towards the three stars (3*)

[Germie]

@Storker: the cmas international standards state 1.4 or national regulation. We don't have a law here, so it is 56/57m. BUT: in our standards is stated that the max depth on a course dive is 30m. So you get an international cert that states you can do 56/57m, but in the course it is 30m. In your country it is 40 then I guess. If you travel with your 3* to France for example you are allowed to dive to 56/57/60m. And at the end it is your choice. In every diving course you are learned to use your brains (I hope), be a thinking diver. But I have seen examples where divers only citate their own bible.
So even if you are allowed to go to 56/57/60m on air, use your brains and only do it if you think you can do it. How easy it is? cmas doesn't mean: amateur non-thinking no knowledge nonsense ******** diver.

 

[Dan_P]

I might take trimix on a 30,2m dive, if it makes sense to do so.

There is not stated that the 56m must be done in a course. In my country it is max 30m, and then you get the 56/57m cert ('brevet international'). Maybe you also don't like this.

Certifying people to do potentially dangerous stuff that they probably don't know how to do, haven't actually tried, and/or are probably unaware of inherent dangers in doing?
Yeah, I don't like that. Unequivocally.

I agree that 56m on air is deep and for some too deep. BUT: there is no proof that there happen more accidents on air than on trimix, no stats are available. And there is no proof that in France and Italy where cmas is quite popular (in France there is a law that you are allowed to dive on air to 56/60m) causes more accidents or incidents. There are no statistics that proof this. Even not in the 'deep' air courses given by technical agencies. Or in the recreational 'deep diver' specialty.
And at the end, you can decide yourself what your maximum depth on air is, it is only you and your own responsability. Even cmas doesn't say you MUST go to 56m on air. And every diver can get bent.

You're right that stats are tricky in this because there are too small numbers to work on, and they don't prove causation.
That said, there is plenty evidence that it's a bad idea to dive to such great depths on a gas as dense as air.
Getting bent is by no means the only issue among them.

What you state about 'amateurs' in cmas (or other amateur groups) is really denigrating about this agency. I agree that the level of instructors overall (so not only cmas) can be higher, but to state that in cmas 'amateurs' shouldn't know any better is denigrating. There is a lot of knowledge within cmas. The only point is you don't agree with their way of teaching diving.

It isn't denigrating, it simply is what it is.
If it's your profession, you're a professional, if it isn't you're an amateur.
Simple as that.

Is a padi instructor as worse as a cmas instructor if it is an 'amateur' because his hobby is teaching and his work is in the office?

It's not about which agency is better, but they'd in that case both be "amateurs".

From what I see: cmas teaches in clubs not worser or better than in a commercial dive center. The 'amateurs' teaching in cmas mostly do it voluntary. But with a lot of effort and fun and knowledge. Even within cmas there are commercial divecenters and instructors.

...and I'd personally prefer a professional over an amateur.
If we were talking about another setting than scuba, wouldn't you?
"Welcome to pilot training, let me just wrap this accounts receivables-stuff from my day job, and we can crack at it!" comes to mind.

But the solution is easy: if you don't agree with cmas, go to another agency and if you don't agree all, found your own.

No, that's not the solution.
The solution would be to stop irresponsible practices in the industry.
Besides, this is by no means isolated to CMAS.

Please tell me where can you read about instruction dives to 56m on air.

Let me remind you about something I wrote in post #1:


Let's also look at this logically. According to our tables you can't even bounce to 56m without incurring a deco obligation. The regulations clearly state that neither the instructor nor the student are allowed to go into deco at any point of the dive. This is the relevant bullet point in the syllabus:
(There should be no diving under conditions preventing a direct ascent to the surface).

The instructor is neither allowed to go into deco, nor to go deeper than 30m during instruction dives. Which is why the exam dive is conducted as a simulated decompression dive. The dive is planned to min 25m/max 39m, and the plan may involve enough bottom time to incur a minor deco obligation. But since no diving under conditions preventing direct access to the surface is allowed, the conducted dive has to be to a shallower max depth and/or a shorter bottom time to stay within NDL. But even though the actual dive is a no-deco dive, we're supposed to ascend as if we had incurred a deco obligation (i.e. according to the simulated dive).

I don't think it's to an agency's merit that a national law prohibits it's practices.

I get what you're saying about being sensible, but at the same time, I think it's problematic to large-scale certification to unreasonable depths (with the gas in question, at least), particularly when the students haven't ever been to that depth during training, and are - in my experience - often unaware of the nature of risks involved.

That said, in fairness, I would stand by that it should be illegal to take students to those depths - some agencies do that, and the agency in question does so in many places.

Well, now you're just trolling, aren't you?

My apologies again if my position on deep air is offensive, or if my position on what constitutes a professional and an amateur seem out of line.
Neither should be the case.

 

[Colliam7]

I, too, will pre-emptively apologize, for possibly sidetracking the discussion just a bit.

Personally, I think air/nitrox diving to anywhere over, say, the mid-thirties metres on air/nitrox should be illegal for an instructor or agency, but that 56m during course activity is absolutely irresponsible.

That is, as you state, a personal opinion, and you are entitled to hold it.

I am curious - what is the basis for that opinion? What objective data is available to support requiring helium when diving 'over . . . the mid-thirties'? It would be helpful to know, in order to consider revising agency standards.

 

[Dan_P]

I, too, will pre-emptively apologize, for possibly sidetracking the discussion just a bit.That is, as you state, a personal opinion, and you are entitled to hold it.

I am curious - what is the basis for that opinion? What objective data is available to support requiring helium when diving 'over . . . the mid-thirties'? It would be helpful to know, in order to consider revising agency standards.

Hardly a personal opinion when anchored in scientifically proven, peer-reviewed fact delivered by experts in the field.

https://www.omao.noaa.gov/sites/def...rs and Scientific Diving Proceedings 2016.pdf
Page 69

 

[Germie]

@Dan_P: It sounds you don't like amateurs in your world. They get students also. We call it 'broodnijd' (professional jealousy). Some instructors think every student that goes to another must had been mine. I have learned swimming in a club by certified voluntairy amateurs. I learned horseriding the same way.
There is no proof that an 'amateur' is worser than a 'prof'. You state that every instructor who has a normal job is an 'amateur', that sounds really denigrating.

Further, within cmas there is knowledge about inert gas narcoses, gas density, CO2 as contributing factor for narcoses, gas density CAN cause a CO2 problem, etc. But they have choosen another way than using the expensive helium already at 30.1m. It is all a choice. The link you mentioned is about rebreatherdiving. There plays another thing a role: the efficiency of the scrubber to absorb CO2. We talk here about oc diving and then the lungfilter is the only way to get rid of CO2. There is no chance to reinhale CO2 as with ccr diving. Diving a CCR on air diluent has only because it is a ccr already a higher WOB than diving oc. All this is known within cmas also. As I said, there are no statistics in recreational diving known that proof that all 'air agencies' do it wrong or that all 'amateurs' do it wrong.

And you state with this that you are better than all that bad 'amateurs' here:

My apologies again if my position on deep air is offensive, or if my position on what constitutes a professional and an amateur seem out of line.

And a lot of 'amateur' instructors teach parttime or in their free time. Maybe that instructors dive more than the one in a diveshop who also has to sell products.

But this is all offtopic. If you don't like the cmas way of teaching, you can tell it, but further, don't disturb the divers who have decided that cmas is their way to learn diving.

 

[Storker]

Firstly: if people wanting to discuss deep air to ridiculous depths vs compulsory trimix at any depth exceeding 30.2m could take that discussion to a separate thread, I'd really appreciate that.

Secondly: Since I have a hard time believing that a technical diving instructor from a well-known agency is so ignorant about one of the two largest agencies in his own home country, or that a technical diving instructor is unable to read for comprehension I'll give him the benefit of doubt and assume that he's being deliberately obtuse and engaging in an activity usually described by a word which also is synonymous with "fishing by dragging one or several lures after a moving boat". IOW, I'll refrain from answering his post from now on. I wouldn't be very sad if others chose to do the same. And just FTR, what this instructor currently is engaging in is uncomfortably close to what is regarded as agency bashing here on SB, and agency bashing isn't allowed here on SB. Even if the bash-ee is CMAS instead of PADI, for a change.

That said, this (apparent) ignorance about how CMAS certs work gives me another opportunity to write another tl;dr type post and pontificate a bit. This time about CMAS.

CMAS stands for Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques. It isn't a commercial entity, it's a federation for national diving associations. Every association affiliated with CMAS can issue CMAS certs. So the certs aren't issued by CMAS, they're issued by the national bodies. Any CMAS cert must fulfill the minimum standards and requirements given by CMAS, but the certifying organization is free to impose stricter standards and/or additional limitations.

So if I pass my 3*, I'm certified to 40m depth and light backgas deco. That's what my national 3* cert is good for. Any dive leader up here should know that, so if I were to tell them that my dive would be to 50m, 20 minutes bottom time, 1 hour run time, they'd probably tell me "not on my watch, mate" or something to that effect. Now if I were to go to Belgium to dive, the dive leader probably won't know that my 3* cert is limited compared to central CMAS standards and might well say "OK. Have a good dive". Whether or not I'd spend 20 minutes at 50m on a single tank of air is quite another question, and since even CMAS doesn't have a dive police it's totally on me to decide if that's a good idea. Incidentally, I don't think that it's a particularly good idea.

Finally, I'm slightly fascinated by the use of "amateur" as a derogatory term. Already on the first page of this thread I pontificated somewhat on the consequences of being non-profit versus being for-profit, but last time I checked organizations like the Red Cross or Medecins Sans Frontiers were non-profit. Who would bash them for being amateurs, implying that they are incompetent?

 

[Dan_P]

@Storker I think you're inbuing what I'm saying with a meaning I've not intended - it's not about agencies, but a general issue in the industry.

If I wanted to bash CMAS and make sure there's no risk of me being ignorant about them or what they're doing in my country, I'd point out that, they're certifying to 56m unchecked by national law.
They're not the only ones who certify too deep on air, though - like I said, it's not an agency bashing.

I really don't see what you're getting at with the Red Cross-comparison.
The doctors who are sent out into the world to do good, are actual doctors, who work as doctors.
Being "non-profit" is not the same as being an "amateur".

If you perceive my statements about amateurs as derogatory, then surely you can see how reversely, an opposing position could be perceived as derogatory of professionals.

It sounds you don't like amateurs in your world. They get students also. We call it 'broodnijd' (professional jealousy). Some instructors think every student that goes to another must had been mine. I have learned swimming in a club by certified voluntairy amateurs. I learned horseriding the same way.
There is no proof that an 'amateur' is worser than a 'prof'. You state that every instructor who has a normal job is an 'amateur', that sounds really denigrating.

No jealousy at all, my calendar is plenty full and I wish anyone else the best in whichever endeavour they may wish to pursue.
Apart from doing silliness like certifying students to dive to 56m after a simulated dive to 30m.
That's really degrading to the industry as a whole, and hence, it's also my business.
And as I said, deep air is not isolated to CMAS, so it's not an agency bashing.

The "jealousy"-argument is sideways and a mainstay when there's no other argument left.
I have hardly the time to teach every new diver out there, do I.

Further, within cmas there is knowledge about inert gas narcoses, gas density, CO2 as contributing factor for narcoses, gas density CAN cause a CO2 problem, etc. But they have choosen another way than using the expensive helium already at 30.1m. It is all a choice. As I said, there are not statistics in recreational diving known that proof that all 'air agencies' do it wrong or that all 'amateurs' do it wrong.

And you state with this that you are better than all that bad 'amateurs' here:


And a lot of 'amateur' instructors teach parttime or in their free time. Maybe that instructors dive more than the one in a diveshop who also has to sell products.

But this is all offtopic. If you don't like the cmas way of teaching, you can tell it, but further, don't disturb the divers who have decided that cmas is their way to learn diving.

We're not on "gas density CAN cause a CO2 problem" when on 56m on air.
And there has to be a massive lack of knowledge in play when an agency defines its depth limits by a simple "1.40 / 0.21 = 6,6".

But again, this is not limited to CMAS.

 

[Graeme Fraser]

Firstly: if people wanting to discuss deep air to ridiculous depths vs compulsory trimix at any depth exceeding 30.2m could take that discussion to a separate thread, I'd really appreciate that.

Secondly: Since I have a hard time believing that a technical diving instructor from a well-known agency is so ignorant about one of the two largest agencies in his own home country, or that a technical diving instructor is unable to read for comprehension I'll give him the benefit of doubt and assume that he's being deliberately obtuse and engaging in an activity usually described by a word which also is synonymous with "fishing by dragging one or several lures after a moving boat". IOW, I'll refrain from answering his post from now on. I wouldn't be very sad if others chose to do the same. And just FTR, what this instructor currently is engaging in is uncomfortably close to what is regarded as agency bashing here on SB, and agency bashing isn't allowed here on SB. Even if the bash-ee is CMAS instead of PADI, for a change.

That said, this (apparent) ignorance about how CMAS certs work gives me another opportunity to write another tl;dr type post and pontificate a bit. This time about CMAS.

CMAS stands for Confédération Mondiale des Activités Subaquatiques. It isn't a commercial entity, it's a federation for national diving associations. Every association affiliated with CMAS can issue CMAS certs. So the certs aren't issued by CMAS, they're issued by the national bodies. Any CMAS cert must fulfill the minimum standards and requirements given by CMAS, but the certifying organization is free to impose stricter standards and/or additional limitations.

So if I pass my 3*, I'm certified to 40m depth and light backgas deco. That's what my national 3* cert is good for. Any dive leader up here should know that, so if I were to tell them that my dive would be to 50m, 20 minutes bottom time, 1 hour run time, they'd probably tell me "not on my watch, mate" or something to that effect. Now if I were to go to Belgium to dive, the dive leader probably won't know that my 3* cert is limited compared to central CMAS standards and might well say "OK. Have a good dive". Whether or not I'd spend 20 minutes at 50m on a single tank is quite another question, and since even CMAS doesn't have a dive police it's totally on me to decide if that's a good idea. Incidentally, I don't think that it's a particularly good idea.

Finally, I'm slightly fascinated by the use of "amateur" as a derogatory term. Already on the first page of this thread I pontificated somewhat on the consequences of being non-profit versus being for-profit, but last time I checked organizations like the Red Cross or Medecins Sans Frontiers were non-profit. Who would bash them for being amateurs, implying that they are incompetent?

I too take issue with the word ''amateur" being used to imply inferior. In addition to the organisations you listed, I would urge the poster not to ever find himself stranded in UK waters as the people dragging his arse out of the sea are likely to be the RNLI, "no thanks, I'll wait for the professionals to arrive". This volunteer organisation has saved over 140,000 lives and lost 600 brave crewman since it's foundation.

 

[Germie]

30mdives are not simulated, but are really done. You have to do/show rescueskills from this depth, guiding skills, smb skills etc.

In another country boatskills are also part of the course.

A voluntary doctor is still a volunteer but with professional education.
Same is within all diving including cmas. The instructor courses are a professional education. And it it up to the instructor to teach voluntary or ask money for it. Even within cmas.
I teach for 3 agencies, including cmas which i do voluntary. I dont teach different when teaching cmas or a commercial course. The only difference is that if you pay, I try to make time at the moment you want to do it. If i do it voluntary, i can decide that other things go first. So this means the club or voluntary way takes more time, is slower.
For me at diverlevel it was too slow. But at the end, you are not worser or better if you have done voluntary club based cmas courses or paid for commercial courses.
So you can say as disadvantage of club diving: slow
But the end quality is not worser.

In cmas you learn to be a thinking diver and not being a parrot. So you can use your brains and think deep air is not for me, let's do a trimixcourse. This is not forbidden in cmas. And you are also allowed to take this course from another agency.

And if I get in trouble and need to be rescued or need to get cpr, i hope someone is helping me, even it an amateur trained or nontrained person. The chance to find 'amateur' buddies around you is way much bigger than a '''professional' arrogant diver.
I think i prefer diving with storker over a ' professional'.

 

[Dan_P]

If you perceive my statements about amateurs as derogatory, then surely you can see how reversely, an opposing position could be perceived as derogatory of professionals.