OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[SapphireMind]

I suspect if you actually thought about what you've said here, you'd see the fallacy. Either that, or you are just trolling.

I don't see the fallacy, can you share? We obviously have different points of view and that affects what we might see as fallacious or not.

There are many people who don't see a doctor regularly. They may have an undiagnosed condition that is far more dangerous than mine, but just because they don't know about it, they're cool to dive and automatically safer?

I think people should talk with their physician prior to diving, no matter what conditions you may or may not have, but requiring a permission slip from the doctor is not making anyone safer. And with the attitudes of calling people names and disparaging them if they disclose a medical condition, it encourages people to not share information with their dive team, which is entirely counterproductive.

There is a dude that it took 7 years in the US to get a doc to sign off, I think he did a total of 10 visits, plus testing, none of which is covered by insurance, all because the docs, especially in the US are very risk averse to signing forms like that, for fear of liability falling on them. It's all about the blame game, and not actually making people safer to dive.

 

[tursiops]

It makes no sense to require only potential student divers to check boxes on a form, and assume they can't be trusted to speak to their own licensed medical professionals regarding any possible medical conditions, when the entire scuba diving community, many of whom are old, out of shape to the point of morbid obesity, who suffer from everything from diabetes to hypertension to heart conditions, are not required to check any medical clearance boxes for their entire lifetime worth of diving.

LOL! Unless they take a class......or go on a liveaboard....or visit certain countries......etc.

 

[JackD342]

You know, I usually try to phrase my comments very evenly and carefully, but I’m going to indulge in my own brief rant for a moment.

Anyone of us that choose to become instructors, especially in the highly litigious US, should have our heads examined. Lord knows it’s not for the money! The rules, guidelines, and standards of the certification agencies are the result of decades of experience and yes, lawsuits won and lost on either side, and are the best tools currently available vetted by those agency’s lawyers. I can’t believe how many folks on these forums think we should each just make it all up again on our own, or pick and choose which standards I do or don’t like or agree with. Maybe even design my own forms to use instead of theirs.
Few of us are lawyers or medical professionals, and even fewer are BOTH! Saying “that’s just for liability” doesn’t make it evil or wrong, it’s just inconvenient.
No release form in the world would prevent someone from suing me. It does make make the case defensible if I have followed all standards consistently, and would get PADI and the insurance company into the courtroom with me. Make it up as I go along, and I am totally out on my own. So stop sucking the joy out of this, and give... me... a... break!


Okay, I’m done now. Time to get some dinner and watch all the LIKEs just pour in.

 

[BRT]

No, sort of the opposite - trying to show that it isn't black and white. That form is a liability form, nothing else. It's for who is to blame if something goes wrong, allowing the dive shop/instructor to say "Not my fault". Except that it is a poor substitute for real discussion and consideration.



Exactly, and there are other ways to release liability without a doctor's note.

I'll bet there is not a better way than to lie on the medical form.

 

[SapphireMind]

I'll bet there is not a better way than to lie on the medical form.

Currently there aren't other options. When I lie on the form, I've released the dive shop from liability and I'm not making my doctor liable. I am held solely liable for it.

 

[tursiops]

I don't see the fallacy, can you share? We obviously have different points of view and that affects what we might see as fallacious or not.

If you want to have everything and everybody regulated in everything they do, then sure, require an annual -- no, let's say monthly -- full physical. Do we think diving will be safer? After all, they could get real sick in the month since their physical. There is no good solution here, except for the personal responsibility of the diver. This thead is about taking a class, being under instruction, and then the standards aer clear. Arguing about what divers ought to be doing for the rest of their life is just trolling.

There are many people who don't see a doctor regularly. They may have an undiagnosed condition that is far more dangerous than mine, but just because they don't know about it, they're cool to dive and automatically safer?

These are exactly the people that @caruso thinks ought to just answer NO on the form and lie their way into the class.

I think people should talk with their physician prior to diving, no matter what conditions you may or may not have, but requiring a permission slip from the doctor is not making anyone safer.

Even if the "permission slip" as you call it means they have indeed talked with their doctor? I don't understand your logic.

 

[SapphireMind]

You know, I usually try to phrase my comments very evenly and carefully, but I’m going to indulge in my own brief rant for a moment.

Anyone of us that choose to become instructors, especially in the highly litigious US, should have our heads examined. Lord knows it’s not for the money! The rules, guidelines, and standards of the certification agencies are the result of decades of experience and yes, lawsuits won and lost on either side, and are the best tools currently available vetted by those agency’s lawyers. I can’t believe how many folks on these forums think we should each just make it all up again on our own, or pick and choose which standards I do or don’t like or agree with. Maybe even design my own forms to use instead of theirs.
Few of us are lawyers or medical professionals, and even fewer are BOTH! Saying “that’s just for liability” doesn’t make it evil or wrong, it’s just inconvenient.
No release form in the world would prevent someone from suing me. It does make make the case defensible if I have followed all standards consistently, and would get PADI and the insurance company into the courtroom with me. Make it up as I go along, and I am totally out on my own. So stop sucking the joy out of this, and give... me... a... break!


Okay, I’m done now. Time to get some dinner and watch all the LIKEs just pour in.

Again, I am a medical professional. But yes, inconvenient is exactly it. It's not making people safer, it's not preventing suing, it's not protecting anyone, it is just a form to sign so someone would have a hard time suing the dive shop that rented me equipment. The same thing happens when conditions are omitted. Exact same outcome.

Having the joy sucked out of it is exactly what I would feel if I were in another country, unable to easily access internet, and someone is saying they didn't receive my note that I sent ahead (or maybe I didn't even bring my phone because of no service) Or asking people with minor issues that don't impact diving safety to go through multitudes of exams and tests that are medically unnecessary (costly and require time out of work) because a lawsuit shy doc is nervous to sign the form.

It may be the best there currently is, or it may be the first thing they settled on, or it might be a poor stopgap, none of which should stop us from advocating and wanting a better system.

 

[tursiops]

Currently there aren't other options. When I lie on the form, I've released the dive shop from liability and I'm not making my doctor liable. I am held solely liable for it.

And you are solely responsible if you should die during a class and the rest of the class has PTSD for the rest of their lives; this is the selfish, sociopathic part of the "just say NO" solution.

 

[gcarter]

There are many people who don't see a doctor regularly. They may have an undiagnosed condition that is far more dangerous than mine, but just because they don't know about it, they're cool to dive and automatically safer?

These are exactly the people that @caruso thinks ought to just answer NO on the form and lie their way into the class.

If they answer no on the form, they aren't lying. You are responding to a statement about a diver being unaware of a condition.

This is nonsensical.

 

[caruso]

This thead is about taking a class, being under instruction, and then the standards aer clear. Arguing about what divers ought to be doing for the rest of their life is just trolling.

This thread is not about taking a class and being under instruction. It's about a medical form that is required prior to scuba diving. A form that is supposed to be signed once and then forgotten about for the rest of a diver's lifetime. Even if they're in perfect health when they start diving, but suffering from a serious heart condition 20 years later. Which flies in the face of common sense once you really start to think about it. As does calling someone a liar because they answered no on a medical form because they weren't aware they even had a medical condition.