OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[tursiops]

There are a lot of attempts in this thread to make things black or white. For example, your health can change in a year, so what good is a 11-month old signature? Yes, that is certainly true. But the caveat that goes along with the "valid for 12 months" standard is "if nothing has changed." If a students hands me a doctor's signature, I am expecting that the student's health is as it was at the time of the signature, and may well ask if it is. "No changes in the 10 months since this was signed?" At some point, you have to trust the student, just as the student has to trust the instructor to do a good job. But the standards in place do not extend that trust to all situations and all time. 12 months max for a signature, if nothing has changed, and the hope that the student has actually talked to the doctor honestly too.

 

[caruso]

TBut the standards in place do not extend that trust to all situations and all time. 12 months max for a signature, if nothing has changed, and the hope that the student has actually talked to the doctor honestly too.

Why limit the medical form to students? If we acknowledge that a lot can change in a year, and we must trust the individual diver to check with their doctors, then why don't ALL divers have to sign a medical clearance every year OR no divers have to sign any medical clearance and students and existing divers simply have to be trusted to speak with their doctors every year or when their medical conditions change?

No matter how you slice it, the checkboxes on the medical form which require only a student diver to reveal medical conditions make no sense when the entire diving population is unregulated for all their diving after they're certified.

 

[BRT]

There are definitely ways of doing that without the form the way it is currently done. A liability release is one way. "I have been advised to seek advice from a medical professional to ensure that my medical conditions and medications do not interfere with my ability to safely dive. ___ initial here" "I am aware that the conditions asked about could potentially produce a fatal event while diving ____ initial here" "I will always disclose all pertinent aspects of my current medical conditions to those I dive with ____ initial here" etc.

Or a short counseling session with the instructor/whoever to discuss the medical conditions and why they are/are not contraindicated for diving. In my case it would be "I've been on an antidepressant for 20 years, no adverse effects. I pass out when I have horrific intestinal cramps of a certain kind. I take an anti-spasmodic prior to diving that is non-drowsy and I will not dive if I have any GI symptoms. If I were to develop signs of GI distress while underwater, I would call the dive and ascend to surface safely. I have ample warning time prior to any loss of consciousness where I feel unwell, but nowhere close to unconscious, which allows for time to safely ascend, as long as I'm not going on deco dives, which I will never do. I discussed these with my doctor who had no concerns because my conditions are well-controlled and have plenty of warning." Takes a few seconds, but that's it. That way everyone can be aware of conditions, aware of what is being done to mitigate conditions, and bring up concerns that might not have been addressed.

The problem with that is if you die diving with that person the court case will be about why they allowed you to dive with that condition. If you sign the form saying you don't have the condition it is going to be a little easier to defend in court.

 

[BRT]

Why limit the medical form to students? If we acknowledge that a lot can change in a year, and we must trust the individual diver to check with their doctors, then why don't ALL divers have to sign a medical clearance every year OR no divers have to sign any medical clearance and students and existing divers simply have to be trusted to speak with their doctors every year or when their medical conditions change?

No matter how you slice it, the checkboxes on the medical form which require only a student diver to reveal medical conditions make no sense when the entire diving population is unregulated for all their diving after they're certified.

I don't think it is a bad thing to read that form and consider what your risks may be. If there is a risk you were not thinking about it might be good to think about it.

 

[SapphireMind]

There are a lot of attempts in this thread to make things black or white. For example, your health can change in a year, so what good is a 11-month old signature? Yes, that is certainly true. But the caveat that goes along with the "valid for 12 months" standard is "if nothing has changed." If a students hands me a doctor's signature, I am expecting that the student's health is as it was at the time of the signature, and may well ask if it is. "No changes in the 10 months since this was signed?" At some point, you have to trust the student, just as the student has to trust the instructor to do a good job. But the standards in place do not extend that trust to all situations and all time. 12 months max for a signature, if nothing has changed, and the hope that the student has actually talked to the doctor honestly too.

No, sort of the opposite - trying to show that it isn't black and white. That form is a liability form, nothing else. It's for who is to blame if something goes wrong, allowing the dive shop/instructor to say "Not my fault". Except that it is a poor substitute for real discussion and consideration.

The problem with that is if you die diving with that person the court case will be about why they allowed you to dive with that condition. If you sign the form saying you don't have the condition it is going to be a little easier to defend in court.

Exactly, and there are other ways to release liability without a doctor's note.

 

[tursiops]

Why limit the medical form to students? If we acknowledge that a lot can change in a year, and we must trust the individual diver to check with their doctors, then why don't ALL divers have to sign a medical clearance every year OR no divers have to sign any medical clearance and students and existing divers simply have to be trusted to speak with their doctors every year or when their medical conditions change?

No matter how you slice it, the checkboxes on the medical form which require only a student diver to reveal medical conditions make no sense when the entire diving population is unregulated for all their diving after they're certified.

I suspect if you actually thought about what you've said here, you'd see the fallacy. Either that, or you are just trolling.

 

[caruso]

I suspect if you actually thought about what you've said here, you'd see the fallacy. Either that, or you are just trolling.

It makes no sense to require only potential student divers to check boxes on a form, and assume they can't be trusted to speak to their own licensed medical professionals regarding any possible medical conditions, when the entire scuba diving community, many of whom are old, out of shape to the point of morbid obesity, who suffer from everything from diabetes to hypertension to heart conditions, are not required to check any medical clearance boxes for their entire lifetime worth of diving.

 

[oly5050user]

If I was a scuba diving instructor, unlike yourself, I'd care what my student's medical conditions were and I would be interested in knowing what conditions they have, especially if they checked the boxes on the medical form. Because it wouldn't be just about taking their money as it apparently is for you. I'd actually care about them as a person and what risks they might be taking given their medical conditions that they acknowledged on the form and take the extra time required to discuss it with them prior to them entering the water for the first time.

Not a doctor , cannot say if any medical condition disqualifies anyone. That is left up to a doctor to do. Doctor also accepts their share of liability . How can you say I just want to take their money after I explained in earlier post I have no problem to refund money to someone who should not dive.

 

[caruso]

I don't think it is a bad thing to read that form and consider what your risks may be. If there is a risk you were not thinking about it might be good to think about it.

No doubt. Perhaps it would be better for a potential diver to be required to sign the bottom of a form that states "I have consulted with my medical professional regarding any medical conditions I might have and understand the associated risks". Or something like that.

 

[caruso]

How can you say I just want to take their money after I explained in earlier post I have no problem to refund money to someone who should not dive.

How can you say that if I was an instructor I'd only want to take money from divers because I don't understand the point of the required checkboxes on the medical form?