OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[tursiops]

It's security theater for diving.

You must love TSA. May I suggest you stop flying?

 

[caruso]

Yes, of course I've thought of it. I'm quite happy with it. Seems that if a beer for lunch (on a liveaboard) means no diving the rest of the day, then recreational drug use ought to be similar.

It oughta be, in an ideal world. Meanwhile, in reality you've got a lot of people getting high on pot, and drinking booze, and doing all sorts of illegal drugs, and going scuba diving. And lying about it on medical forms. But as per the context of this thread, it's not the lying that's causing the problem, it's the irresponsible and reckless behavior of the diver in question. To these guys, a few checkboxes on a medical form won't change a thing.

Those are the ones that worry me: the diabetics (I'm one, so it is not "me" versus "them"), the asthmatics (like my wife), the ones who've already had a stroke, etc. how do you propose to let those folks know they really need to be careful?

That's a discussion they need to have with their primary care physician prior to diving.

 

[JackD342]

Just occurred to me - if by chance when you are renting/diving you are verbally volunteering personal medical info that might concern the operation, I can easily imagine them asking for some extra paperwork to CYA.

Sort of the same way we (or maybe most of us) won’t rent or sell life support items without a certification card. It’s not a law, just a sound practice.

 

[SapphireMind]

Yes, of course I've thought of it. I'm quite happy with it. Seems that if a beer for lunch (on a liveaboard) means no diving the rest of the day, then recreational drug use ought to be similar.
No, you are absolutely right. But not everyone is included in your statement. Those are the ones that worry me: the diabetics (I'm one, so it is not "me" versus "them"), the asthmatics (like my wife), the ones who've already had a stroke, etc. how do you propose to let those folks know they really need to be careful?

There are definitely ways of doing that without the form the way it is currently done. A liability release is one way. "I have been advised to seek advice from a medical professional to ensure that my medical conditions and medications do not interfere with my ability to safely dive. ___ initial here" "I am aware that the conditions asked about could potentially produce a fatal event while diving ____ initial here" "I will always disclose all pertinent aspects of my current medical conditions to those I dive with ____ initial here" etc.

Or a short counseling session with the instructor/whoever to discuss the medical conditions and why they are/are not contraindicated for diving. In my case it would be "I've been on an antidepressant for 20 years, no adverse effects. I pass out when I have horrific intestinal cramps of a certain kind. I take an anti-spasmodic prior to diving that is non-drowsy and I will not dive if I have any GI symptoms. If I were to develop signs of GI distress while underwater, I would call the dive and ascend to surface safely. I have ample warning time prior to any loss of consciousness where I feel unwell, but nowhere close to unconscious, which allows for time to safely ascend, as long as I'm not going on deco dives, which I will never do. I discussed these with my doctor who had no concerns because my conditions are well-controlled and have plenty of warning." Takes a few seconds, but that's it. That way everyone can be aware of conditions, aware of what is being done to mitigate conditions, and bring up concerns that might not have been addressed.

 

[oly5050user]

Rather shortsighted thinking. If every diver was honest on the form including saying yes to recreational drug use, and a good percentage of those divers were denied the clearance to dive, you'd have a much smaller pool of students to instruct. I know, you never thought of that did you.

Once again, you fail to consider that a diver who omitted a "yes" on the form can be just as safe, just as selfless, and just as much a normal, nonsociopathic member of the scuba diving community by addressing their medical issues and concerns with a competent, licensed, medical professional and diving within safe limits for whatever condition they may have. It's not like failing to check a box means they're going to be completely irresponsible when it comes to diving and put everybody in danger, and it's ridiculous and insulting to suggest otherwise.

Rather have a small pool of students than a dead one. I have turned people away for all kind of issues, can be medical, poor swim ability anything that I feel will be problematic. I am not out there wanting to teach everyone to dive. Many people should not. A few months ago I conducted a pool refresher for someone that certified in Thailand. After a few minutes told him to get out of pool and to either never go diving as he had no idea what he was doing, or retake entire open water course again from competent instructor. Refunded his money on the spot, no problem.
Kind of ruins your day pulling a dead person out of the water. If they do not want to fill out form, that's ok. Just get a doctor to sign you off clear to dive. I really do not care what a student has that causes a yes reply. Using your thoughts it seems your rather take their money than be safe. Please never become an instructor.

 

[SapphireMind]

You must love TSA. May I suggest you stop flying?

Hate the TSA, because again, it isn't doing anything. Most of my flying is done on private flights because I fly for work, so no TSA involved. And I'm global entry, which is a more reasonable screening tool and prevents me from doing the more theatrical aspects of the TSA screening. And I advocate to my elected representatives that more effective screening should be done.

 

[SapphireMind]

I really do not care what a student has that causes a yes reply. Using your thoughts it seems your rather take their money than be safe. Please never become an instructor.

But see, you should care. Just because my doctor signed a form a year ago does not mean nothing has changed. And everyone is safer when they communicate, instead of the hardline that you are advocating.

If people here say that a waiver is good for a year's time, I'll likely get my provider to sign one, but that doesn't make me any more safe than I was before the form was signed. The form is a CYA liability form.

 

[tursiops]

There are definitely ways of doing that without the form the way it is currently done. A liability release is one way. "I have been advised to seek advice from a medical professional to ensure that my medical conditions and medications do not interfere with my ability to safely dive. ___ initial here" "I am aware that the conditions asked about could potentially produce a fatal event while diving ____ initial here" "I will always disclose all pertinent aspects of my current medical conditions to those I dive with ____ initial here" etc.

Or a short counseling session with the instructor/whoever to discuss the medical conditions and why they are/are not contraindicated for diving. In my case it would be "I've been on an antidepressant for 20 years, no adverse effects. I pass out when I have horrific intestinal cramps of a certain kind. I take an anti-spasmodic prior to diving that is non-drowsy and I will not dive if I have any GI symptoms. If I were to develop signs of GI distress while underwater, I would call the dive and ascend to surface safely. I have ample warning time prior to any loss of consciousness where I feel unwell, but nowhere close to unconscious, which allows for time to safely ascend, as long as I'm not going on deco dives, which I will never do. I discussed these with my doctor who had no concerns because my conditions are well-controlled and have plenty of warning." Takes a few seconds, but that's it. That way everyone can be aware of conditions, aware of what is being done to mitigate conditions, and bring up concerns that might not have been addressed.

To your first paragraph, I agree completely. In fact, that is what most dive operations I've been to around the world do.

To your second paragraph, i disagree completely,.You do not want to put the dive professional in the position of having to make a medical judgement on you. Now, if you have already filled out a liability release, then maybe. But not instead of one. If you want to take a class from me, and refused to provide me with a doctor's (and not your own) signature but offered instead to chat with me about your issues, I'd say Goodbye. no class from me. Sorry.

 

[SapphireMind]

To your first paragraph, I agree completely. In fact, that is what most dive operations I've been to around the world do.

To your second paragraph, i disagree completely,.You do not want to put the dive professional in the position of having to make a medical judgement on you. Now, if you have already filled out a liability release, then maybe. But not instead of one. If you want to take a class from me, and refused to provide me with a doctor's (and not your own) signature but offered instead to chat with me about your issues, I'd say Goodbye. no class from me. Sorry.

It doesn't have to be either/or. You are trusting that people who say they have talked to their doctor about it have - and you are trusting people who have a signed medical letter haven't forged it. It's not to have the dive master to decide whether you are cleared for diving, that's up to the diver and their doctor. It's about you as the dive professional being comfortable with their conditions and what has been done to mitigate them. My doctor might have signed my form, but discussing it with a dive professional might turn up issues that my doctor didn't consider. In my case, I take anti spasmodics just in case to prevent issues, but if I didn't, my doctor may feel that I am well controlled enough to not even need to do that (I probably don't, but I am very conservative). But if you are not comfortable with what I've done to mitigate my risks, it doesn't matter what my doctor has said, you aren't comfortable. And you should be able to be comfortable and not just take a signature as gospel.

 

[caruso]

I really do not care what a student has that causes a yes reply. Using your thoughts it seems your rather take their money than be safe. Please never become an instructor.

If I was a scuba diving instructor, unlike yourself, I'd care what my student's medical conditions were and I would be interested in knowing what conditions they have, especially if they checked the boxes on the medical form. Because it wouldn't be just about taking their money as it apparently is for you. I'd actually care about them as a person and what risks they might be taking given their medical conditions that they acknowledged on the form and take the extra time required to discuss it with them prior to them entering the water for the first time.