OWD license without a doctor's certificate?

[SapphireMind]

I'm a PADI instructor. If I'm teaching I must ask for that medical form, but all I need (per PADI) is the signature on page 2. The only purpose of the YES/NO responses is to tell me if I need the signed page 2. Some posters on here insist otherwise, but they refuse to check with PADI and insist on their own interpretation of the form. I am not a medical professional and do not even want to know what the YES answers are. I'd be really upset if someone answered all NOs to avoid having to get the doctor's signature, and I hope people don't do that, no matter what some of the misinformed ScubaBoard advice is. I want my students to be safe, I don't want to be sued, and I want others in the class to avoid the stress of a medical event during their class. It is quite rude, selfish, and rather sociopathic to say you are not going to answer YES when you should,

Would you accept a doctor's signature from 2 years prior? 6 months prior? Does it need to be immediately prior to diving? This is the problem with requiring that doctor's signature. How many physicals do you reasonably expect me to have for a condition that is unchanging and well-controlled? How many times should I be charged by my doctor (because some charge to fill out forms) to have that signed?

It's not sociopathic to not say yes, when you have already been cleared for diving, but each individual requires a new form. It would be sociopathic to have a condition that would preclude you from safe diving and to hide that from everyone. There's a difference between those scenarios.

Edited to add:
And while I can't be my own medical provider, I am medical and would just my own signature be sufficient? I would have no issue to having it needing to be signed by the participant as affirming they have discussed the issues with their physician and have been found to be fit to dive. That allows discussion on the topic of medical conditions, allows for people to be honest on their forms and they are then assuming responsibility for their own safety by affirming that they have done due diligence by speaking with medical providers about conditions.

 

[jlcnuke]

Would you accept a doctor's signature from 2 years prior? 6 months prior? Does it need to be immediately prior to diving? This is the problem with requiring that doctor's signature. How many physicals do you reasonably expect me to have for a condition that is unchanging and well-controlled? How many times should I be charged by my doctor (because some charge to fill out forms) to have that signed?

It's not sociopathic to not say yes, when you have already been cleared for diving, but each individual requires a new form. It would be sociopathic to have a condition that would preclude you from safe diving and to hide that from everyone. There's a difference between those scenarios.

Of note, as a general rule in the US and similar areas with PADI etc, a form is good for 1 year. I have my doctor sign it at my annual physical each year and scan it to Google Drive. I've not had any instructor have a problem using a printed or emailed copy of it with the dive information on page 1 left blank (upper left on page one with the dive company etc info). As a result, I've not had to lie on any form to date and outside of training I've yet to have anyone ask for a medical form (liveaboards or dive shops). There are some that do, but I imagine most would accept the same form. With my diabetes I'm going to see a doctor every year anyway so it doesn't take much extra to have them fill out the form (well, I have it pre-filled out for them just needing a signature and date).

 

[caruso]

It is quite rude, selfish, and rather sociopathic to say you are not going to answer YES when you should,

Rather shortsighted thinking. If every diver was honest on the form including saying yes to recreational drug use, and a good percentage of those divers were denied the clearance to dive, you'd have a much smaller pool of students to instruct. I know, you never thought of that did you.

Once again, you fail to consider that a diver who omitted a "yes" on the form can be just as safe, just as selfless, and just as much a normal, nonsociopathic member of the scuba diving community by addressing their medical issues and concerns with a competent, licensed, medical professional and diving within safe limits for whatever condition they may have. It's not like failing to check a box means they're going to be completely irresponsible when it comes to diving and put everybody in danger, and it's ridiculous and insulting to suggest otherwise.

 

[SapphireMind]

Of note, as a general rule in the US and similar areas with PADI etc, a form is good for 1 year. I have my doctor sign it at my annual physical each year and scan it to Google Drive. I've not had any instructor have a problem using a printed or emailed copy of it with the dive information on page 1 left blank (upper left on page one with the dive company etc info). As a result, I've not had to lie on any form to date and outside of training I've yet to have anyone ask for a medical form (liveaboards or dive shops). There are some that do, but I imagine most would accept the same form. With my diabetes I'm going to see a doctor every year anyway so it doesn't take much extra to have them fill out the form (well, I have it pre-filled out for them just needing a signature and date).

But having a form signed up to a year in advance isn't actually making you any safer - a lot can happen in a year. Or nothing could happen in a year, or two years even (or fifteen if your condition is static). Every dive shop I've been in has made me fill out a form, for classroom teaching as well as renting equipment. And while that may be good enough for PADI, is it guaranteed to be good enough for everyone? It just seems like a stupid rubber stamp, while not actually addressing dive safety.

I see this in medicine a lot and it drives me crazy too. When I order a procedure like an MRI, the day before my patient goes, I also have to put in a different order that says "May go off unit to MRI, bringing emergency medications". That's an asinine order because of course I want the patient to go off unit, I ordered the MRI. I have to do the same thing for surgery. But, anyone can put it in, it can be done a day or two before, so it isn't actually protecting the patients, notifying us when patients go off unit or doing anything else besides being an extra order.

It's security theater for diving.

 

[tursiops]

Would you accept a doctor's signature from 2 years prior?

No, RSTC standards allow 12 months only.

6 months prior?

Yes, 6 months is less than 12 months.

Does it need to be immediately prior to diving?

No, within 12 months.

How many physicals do you reasonably expect me to have for a condition that is unchanging and well-controlled?

Only once a year, at most, and then only if you are under instruction. It is really not that onerous.

And while I can't be my own medical provider, I am medical and would just my own signature be sufficient?

No, not allowed by standards.

 

[SapphireMind]

No, RSTC standards allow 12 months only.

Yes, 6 months is less than 12 months.


No, within 12 months.


Only once a year, at most, and then only if you are under instruction. It is really not that onerous.


No, not allowed by standards.

That's not been my experience. Anywhere I've gone diving, rented gear or anything that is not being taught also requires the exact same form.

 

[caruso]

But having a form signed up to a year in advance isn't actually making you any safer - a lot can happen in a year. Or nothing could happen in a year, or two years even (or fifteen if your condition is static).

It just seems like a stupid rubber stamp, while not actually addressing dive safety.

That's exactly right. Think about it, many divers probably get certified in their teens or their 20s when most of us are in perfect health. You got all these "do it by the book" posters who say if a diver doesn't check the box they're a risk to others. Meanwhile most of them have probably developed serious medical conditions that they didn't have when they started diving and you don't see them running to their doctors for medical clearance or checking boxes on a medical form if .

Hypocrasy at its best.

 

[JackD342]

@SapphireMind - it sounds like you fill out a lot of Medical Statements. Is that right? I don’t think I have ever been asked to complete one for a trip/excursion.
Realizing that some operators, agencies, and/or locales may have different procedures, the basic PADI standard only comes into play for instruction, including Refreshers. The Continuing Education document includes the Medical Statement and other releases, etc., and is good for one year. The second page, with the MD sign off is good for one year, contingent on nothing changing, which is the responsibility of the student diver. But if at 6 months that diver signs up for another course and casually mentions a recent potentially disqualifying medical event, I need to get some updated paperwork.

So if you are a recently certified OW diver just continuing to dive but not taking any further classes, I question the actual need for additional medical forms. But hey, if an operator has decided they require this to take your money and put you on their boat, that is their prerogative.

 

[tursiops]

Rather shortsighted thinking. If every diver was honest on the form including saying yes to recreational drug use, and a good percentage of those divers were denied the clearance to dive, you'd have a much smaller pool of students to instruct. I know, you never thought of that did you.

Yes, of course I've thought of it. I'm quite happy with it. Seems that if a beer for lunch (on a liveaboard) means no diving the rest of the day, then recreational drug use ought to be similar.

Once again, you fail to consider that a diver who omitted a "yes" on the form can be just as safe, just as selfless, and just as much a normal, nonsociopathic member of the scuba diving community by addressing their medical issues and concerns with a competent, licensed, medical professional and diving within safe limits for whatever condition they may have. It's not like failing to check a box means they're going to be completely irresponsible when it comes to diving and put everybody in danger, and it's ridiculous and insulting to suggest otherwise.

No, you are absolutely right. But not everyone is included in your statement. Those are the ones that worry me: the diabetics (I'm one, so it is not "me" versus "them"), the asthmatics (like my wife), the ones who've already had a stroke, etc. how do you propose to let those folks know they really need to be careful?

 

[tursiops]

That's not been my experience. Anywhere I've gone diving, rented gear or anything that is not being taught also requires the exact same form.

Two comments:
1. Your experience is unusual. Where was this?
2. The same form works for a year.....don't give anybody the original, just give them a copy.