GUE Fundamentals BP/W: Hopeless without Halcyon ?

[Roger Hobden]

So here are some of my list. It is not exhaustive.
1 - Position of the holes on the backplate. You would think it was easy to get this right, but many brands mess it up. If the holes are in the right place, then the cylinders will be in the right place. If the holes aren't then neither are the valves etc
2 - Wing shape. Many wings are far too square, or have very wide side bands. These are stable in a head up postion. They are stable in a head down position, but they make it nearly impossible to be properly trimmed. The sides of the wing should curve.
3 - dump valve position - It needs to be in the right place, not too low, not too far from the edge of the wing.
3 - Webbing. needs to be the right thickness/stiffness. Too flexible makes it hard get into/out of. Too stiff makes it uncomfortable
4 - D-rings. Need to be the right thickness. Too thick makes it hard to clip onto.
5 - Buoyancy position. There are a load of wings that have recently arrived on the market with very little buoyancy at the top. They are nice and stable when upright on the surface, but terrible in good trim underwater, as they constantly try to dump you on your head. It's made worse when you add deco bottles etc.
6 - Webbing routing. I saw a harness today (Actually mentioned in one of the above posts) that has terrible webbing routing. It guarantees that the webbing is twisted and digs in. It also means the waist band is right over the diaphragm, so makes breathing hard.

Thats just my first comments, but all of these I've seen on wings that are said to be "compliant"

Thank you very much for this information, to which probably 99 % of beginner divers would not have access to (and which definitely is not available on the GUE website, nor in any of their documentation for recreational divers), no matter what critical thinking skills they might or might not have otherwise.

In addition, thank you for taking the time to do this.

I have been teaching students for about 40 years in my area of work. Among the common stumbling blocks for beginners are the "obvious" things that experts in any given area of knowledge take for granted. Sometimes, as a teacher, you may feel you are wasting your time explaining basic stuff, when in fact this "wasted" time is exactly what is needed to allow the student to eventually zoom ahead by himself.

 

[sigxbill]

You have to remember at the end of the day, you are diving for YOU;, not an agency, philosophy, brand name, someone else's vision, etc. I've been fortunate to dive with, buddy with, be mentored by, travel with, have a beer with with real-deal, heavy duty divers, instructors, authors, legends, authorities, manufacturers, PSD's, cops, navy divers, etc., and none of these people feel that there life is incomplete because they have nothing to do with GUE.

I think you misunderstand gue completely. A 5 pound SS backplate is not always a 5 pound SS backplate - many of them have nuances that affect their use in various applications. None of the categories of divers you mentioned mean anything special about anything. This is the classic moment for: they don't know what they don't know. And I can tell you from first hand experience that the idea that "ANY education is always a good thing" is not always true. I think you misunderstand team diving too. When team divers dive, they do dive for "ME", because after learning how to dive with a team - they discovered that team diving makes diving more fun for them! And team divers are able to adapt to to others as well. Also, agencies, philosophies, and brands exist to assist divers in achieving their own personal goals - not the other way around.

Someday you may get tired of how you are diving, and if that happens, I invite you to learn about and / or try another agency or philosophy - you might end up gaining something positive from it, and / or maybe even like it.

Cheers

 

[johnkendall]

Thank you very much for this information, to which probably 99 % of beginner divers would not have access to (and which definitely is not available on the GUE website, nor in any of their documentation for recreational divers), no matter what critical thinking skills they might or might not have otherwise.

In addition, thank you for taking the time to do this.

I have been teaching students for about 40 years in my area of work. Among the common stumbling blocks for beginners are the "obvious" things that experts in any given area of knowledge take for granted. Sometimes, as a teacher, you may feel you are wasting your time explaining basic stuff, when in fact this "wasted" time is exactly what is needed to allow the student to eventually zoom ahead by himself.

Hi Roger,

I spend a great deal of time on my classes in explaining the little details. However I do try to avoid needing to by my equipment recommendations. It is particularly difficult to do this by email or phone, and much easier in person.

This is actually a strength of GUE training, that we can and do explain the details during the classes. However it is hard to go into that level of detail in text.

Thanks
John

 

[Roger Hobden]

Hi Roger,

I spend a great deal of time on my classes in explaining the little details. However I do try to avoid needing to by my equipment recommendations. It is particularly difficult to do this by email or phone, and much easier in person.

This is actually a strength of GUE training, that we can and do explain the details during the classes. However it is hard to go into that level of detail in text.

Thanks
John

Maybe a few added Appendices on the GUE website might do the trick ?

Something a little bit more descriptive, like:
BP\W: avoid square backplates, make sure they are rounded, avoid thick D-rings, etc. (the list you mentioned, and other aspects).
Spools: make sure that they are made of neutrally buoyant material, and that the cord is tied to the axis of the spool, etc.
Regulators: diaphragm, balanced, environmentally sealed, etc.
Miflex hoses: LP good, HP bad.
Etc.

The burden of doing this should fall on the organization, and not on each individual Instructor.
After this effort has been done once and posted on the website, it would go a long way to remove part of the guesswork involved in purchasing equipment. All that would be required would be updates from time to time.

By the way, it's a really too bad that the book "Dress For Success" (published in 2004 ! ) has not been updated after all these years .

 

[Diving Dubai]

I wonder if the 20th Anniversary Wing with Carbon Fibre back plate is compliant... Bit embarrassing if they said no. On the other hand...

 

[lv2dive]

While I think there could be a little bit more description about the standardized equipment, I don’t think there is *that* much missing. I came into GUE with no GUE dive buddies or experience and I had a little trouble making a few equipment decisions ahead of time. But for a fundies class, most of the information I needed was in the standards, and I had friends/instructors to go to after the initial class. I got a lot of value out of equipment discussions during the classes - I learned something new about equipment with every class I took. Everything can’t be documented or there would be no need for classes

Maybe a few added Appendices on the GUE website might do the trick ?

Something a little bit more descriptive, like:
BP\W: avoid square backplates, make sure they are rounded, avoid thick D-rings, etc. (the list you mentioned, and other aspects).
Spools: make sure that they are made of neutrally buoyant material, and that the cord is tied to the axis of the spool, etc.
Regulators: diaphragm, balanced, environmentally sealed, etc.
Miflex hoses: LP good, HP bad.
Etc.

The burden of doing this should fall on the organization, and not on each individual Instructor.
After this effort has been done once and posted on the website, it would go a long way to remove part of the guesswork involved in purchasing equipment. All that would be required would be updates from time to time.

By the way, it's a really too bad that the book "Dress For Success" (published in 2004 ! ) has not been updated after all these years .

 

[MichaelMc]

My understanding of the concept is that the balanced rig ideal can be reached by gradually adding weights to the cambands, and simultaneously removing disposable weights on the belt webbing

Roger, I believe the discussion in the thread you started about weighting, Backplate/wing: set-up questions concerning buckle and weights., describes that removing ditchable is not the goal of balanced, but rather ensuring one is not overweighted. That you left the other discussion with the notion that balanced precludes some ditchable is surprising.

OTOH, I will be keeping 2-6 lbs of disposable weights on the belt just in case.

It need not be a OTOH, but rather, 'within balanced, I'll have X ditchable, such as for surface or partial ditching'

 

[Roger Hobden]

Roger, I believe the discussion in the thread you started about weighting, Backplate/wing: set-up questions concerning buckle and weights., describes that removing ditchable is not the goal of balanced, but rather ensuring one is not overweighted. That you left the other discussion with the notion that balanced precludes some ditchable is surprising.


It need not be a OTOH, but rather, 'within balanced, I'll have X ditchable, such as for surface or partial ditching'

Yes, you are correct. Sorry about not using the proper terminology.

 

[Roger Hobden]

Scubapro X-TEK Pure harness and a suitable donut wing from the same line is definitely GUE compliant.

OK, so for the moment, I will be going with the ScubaPro X-Tek Donut Wing and practice using that equipment for the time being. I don't intend to take the GUE course before the end of next summer or the beginning of fall 2019 anyway.

If I eventually "grow out of it", I will probably be able to resell it to some unsuspecting victim diver who has less specific needs then myself.

 

[tbone1004]

@Roger Hobden couple problems with your plan.
If you get help from your LDS, and that LDS isn't particularly good at adjusting bp/w's you're just going to make the process harder for you.
The X-tek Pure is compatible fwiw and the backplate actually comes from the same supplier that Halcyon uses.