Diver Training, Has It Really Been Watered Down???

[scubadada]

Thanks, that's exactly what I thought. I have extensive experience doing online continuing education in complex, detailed areas in the pharmaceutical industry. It is quite easy for me to pass quizzes and tests immediately following the educational activity, but, without ongoing use or application, the information is quickly lost and passing the tests would be difficult. I would be extremely interested in any follow up information regarding recall of educational information in scuba education after a reasonable latency period. My own anecdotal sample would suggest that retention of most information is quite transitory. So. what it the goal, passing quizzes and tests or retaining and using the information?

Using the information is independent of the learning. If you have no intention of using the information, why are you learning it?

Because it was required of me

Follow up data on retention of information would be interesting. Better yet, comparing of various mechanisms of learning

 

[boulderjohn]

So they focus on fewer skills and encourage you to get out diving, practice them, and take another course.

Fewer skills? Compared to when?

I only know the PADI course, which has many more skills taught today than it did a quarter century ago. If you go back more than that quarter century, to the time of the few skills I mentioned being dropped for safety reasons, the course has more total skills.

Some people keep pushing the myth that course requirements are being steadily dropped, but the opposite is true.

 

[tkaelin]

Some people keep pushing the myth that course requirements are being steadily dropped, but the opposite is true.

The requirements and length of training is far less today than when I was first certified in the 1970s. This is no myth. I compare my 1970s YMCA open water cert with what I observed for my kids padi cert in 2009. There is no comparison.

 

[scubadada]

My 1970 LA County course had an effective structure, well before PowerPoint or online learning. We were required to read the material ahead of time. At the beginning of each class, there was a quiz on the material. Going over the quiz made up part of the didactic portion of the class and allowed for specific questions. At the end of each class, there was an additional, though different, quiz on the day's material, prior to going to the pool. All quizzes were handed in, I don't recall how or if they were all used in the evaluation. This gave the instructor a good idea of how all the students were doing with the material. Each class included a short period of one on one interaction between student and instructor, based on personal needs. Of course, there was a final, cumulative, exam with a required passing score. We had the luxury of enough class time to make a structure like this possible.

Times change, I've taken my share of online learning, it works for me too. It probably requires less time from the instructor and the student.

 

[Bent Benny]

I have only gotten a couple pages into this thread so I don't know how the conversation has changed, but I have some experience with e-learning.

About a month ago I got my OW cert. I did it one on one with an instructor (it's usually done as a group here but I payed more to get him to work with my schedule)

First I had to do the NAUI e-learning, then a 2-3 hour class. I took alot from the e-learning course because I learn best when reading information rather than having it spoken to me. When it came time for the classroom part I already knew everything that the instructor was teaching me, because I learned it in the online course. From my experience e-learning is the way to go.

The only real issue I could see with the e-learning course was how the quizes were done. If you got any answers wrong it would show you the correct answer and make you re-take the short quiz, correcting the wrong answer. This made me realize that if someone wanted to just blow through the course without actually absorbing the information they could just by selecting random answers then redoing the quiz knowing all of the right answers. I don't think most people would do this, but a cocky young person who doesn't understand how much there is to learn or the dangers involved in diving might do this just to get through the super long course.

I think an e-learning vs classroom comparison would come down more to the student. Different people learn differently. I personally don't believe that the e-learning portion was lacking anything that the classroom had though.

 

[scubadada]

Fewer skills? Compared to when?

I only know the PADI course, which has many more skills taught today than it did a quarter century ago. If you go back more than that quarter century, to the time of the few skills I mentioned being dropped for safety reasons, the course has more total skills.

Some people keep pushing the myth that course requirements are being steadily dropped, but the opposite is true.

I took my LA County course in 1970 and took PADI OW with my son in 1997. This was prior to eLearning, so I can't make a comparison of the didactic portion. The skills included in the PADI course were extremely complete, though different than LA County, many simply consistent with modern times.

 

[boulderjohn]

The requirements and length of training is far less today than when I was first certified in the 1970s. This is no myth. I compare my 1970s YMCA open water cert with what I observed for my kids padi cert in 2009. There is no comparison.

Please provide a specific comparison.

 

[Bob DBF]

Do you know when Dr Egstrom did that study?

He determined that it took an average of 17 successful practice sessions (after the initial failed attempts) for a buddy team to handle the skill confidently in a real life emergency. Put those individ

I have never seen buddy breathing taught in an OW class, but if Egstrom's study was accurate, teaching them to do that competently must have taken a very long time.

My OW pool sessions were 4 to 6 hour for four Saturday's, and overlapped the Ocean dives on Sunday. We spent a lot of time buddy breathing with our buddy and random other students, as well as other skills and tricks.

As far as buddy breathing goes, it was a solution for the fact that no one had a safe second. As the second second stage became more prevelent in the '80's and ubiquitous in the '90's to the point now that breathing off of another's safe second is called buddy breathing. There is no reason for training for an obsolete procedure unless one decides to dive vintage. It's like training everyone to dive double hose regs, instead of what they use.

My issue isn't how the the materials were taught, although my preference would be as I was taught. The instructor gave assignment of material to read and quizzes taken at home, the class would insure everyone would know and understand what was covered an clear up any questions. Then we would talk about diving untill the class time was up or the discussion ended. Personally I believe there was a much good information in those discussions as in the class itself.

The best thing about the class was the amount of time spent in the water. I see ads for confined water 5 skills 3/4 of a day in the pool and 4 OW dives. How any, but possibly a few, can master OW skills in that time is beyond me.

Our three days at the ocean was a free dive and scuba, two scuba, last cert dive and fun dive. We started with skills and finished the tank on a dive and did two long surface swims, one through 150, or so, yards of kelp. The other two dives were from an RHIB, one skill was floating on the surface fo 30 min without approaching the boat.


I agree, after many discussions, that the standards haven't changed. My Focus has been changed, by your continued logic, to the zero to hero, everyone has to be a dive proffessional as fast as possible business model of SCUBA today. The standards mean nothing if there is only lip service given to them.

It's not to say that bad instruction did not happen back in the day, but the products of that kind of instruction are not likely to be still diving and on the board now. Perhaps it's the poor (watered down) instruction that's the reason that so many leave SCUBA now.


Bob

 

[boulderjohn]

There is one other thing to point out about the typical comparison of classes 40-50 years ago to classes today. People focus on the total time the courses took. I have already pointed out that this assumes that the time spent on lectures was an advantage somehow, but those same comparisons usually omit the time spent on home study in the modern course completely, as if academic instruction has been omitted entirely. Why is it that time being led by the instructor is the only time that counts in a comparison?

 

[tkaelin]

Please provide a specific comparison.

Maybe someone can pull up a YMCA Instructor's manual from the 70s to provide you with precise "specifics" so the debate can end. From memory though are the following. The YMCA class had as it requirements physical fitness and swimming skills. PADI does not. YMCA certification had weeks of pool and classroom work. Each night of classes had pool work. All nights of pool work started with swimming laps first without equipment and then with. We did the rescue tow laps as well. Ditch in don from the bottom of the pool and buddy breathing practiced repeatedly. In the classroom, more topics covered and trained upon including deco diving.

The Padi I observed in 2009 did not involve any emphasis on swimming skills other than a rudimentary basic of "can you swim". No emphasis on physical fitness or improving swimming skills in any significant way. Divers being certified today have less training than they did in the 70s. Basic skills glossed over. Meaning if you could do it, move on. No repetitive training on each skill to build the memory. I can't remember the time spent in classroom and pool for the PADI but it was a fraction spent in the YMCA course. Again, if someone can pull info from YMCA instructors manual I am happy to be proven wrong