Anti ScubaPro bias?

[The Chairman]

So given the various responses, ScubaBoard is not at all "anti-ScubaPro". Like any brand, they have fans and critics. For most of us, it's not that we 'hate' ScubaPro at all, but that we've found choices that suit us better.

 

[kmarks]

Regulators-they forbid sale of parts to end users, huge problem with technical divers. They're also exorbitantly expensive. A MK25/G260 is $690 for just a first and second. A Deep6 Signature is $375. The Scubapro doesn't perform any better yet is twice the cost. *disclaimer, I do have 5x MK25's, 4x MK10's, 2x MK20's and 5x 109's from Scubapro, but they were all bought at idiotically low prices or given to me*. Should go forth and say that my bias isn't against the regulators themselves. The rest of my regs are Poseidons. If I were to buy new? 100% they'd all be Deep6's

With that much ScubaPro, do you actually own any Deep6 Gear?

Conversations like this are part of the reason why, 5 years in, I still don't own my own regs. I have no idea what to buy. Rentals always seem to be SP, Aqualung, or Atomic, and apparently those are all terrible and it's a miracle I've made it to the surface alive after each dive. My LDS, as far as I remember, only carries those three brands (and maybe not even the Aqualung and their BCD choices are also limited). I've given them plenty of money for training, so I don't feel I have to give them my money for equipment, but I would like to be able to get things serviced. There are so many small operations, like Deep6, VDH, DGX Custom versions of Deep6, OMS, and DiveRite, Freedom Plates, and I know nothing about these, except a bunch of "some guys" on scubaboard who are huge fans and it turns out to be because their buddy owns the company. What happens when that guy decides he doesn't want to do this anymore? SP may have a reputation for difficult customer service, but do any of us not expect them to at least still exist and have parts 5 years from now?

I want to own my own regs, and I've looked long and hard at some from Atomic and from SP. Yeah, they're expensive so I haven't bought them. I want the cheapest reg that is going to be comfortable to breathe and will get me back to the surface alive every time and without a terrible headache. Deep6 offers ONE first stage and ONE second stage. At least that removes the analysis paralysis from the decision, but their website leaves me with more questions than answers. They have a little mini blog that brags about service, and says that service is something you can add to your cart right from the website, just like buying a reg, but that option doesn't actually seem to exist.

Don't think I'm trying to defend SP or trash the smaller companies. I don't know what I'm saying. Maybe I'm just venting because I've been so confused for so long.

 

[tbone1004]

@kmarks that I do.
Remember, cave diver... I have a lot of stuff, and I like to keep my regs separate so I don't have to convert stuff over. Single tank, doubles, CCR rack, sidemount primary, decompression bottles, stage bottles, FFM, double hose. Also slightly gear addicted when I get stupid good deals on stuff, like $50 for MK25's or $100 doubles set of Poseidon Jetstreams. I also have a considerable amount of prototype gear from various manufacturers that come out on occasion.

Note that we have never said the regulators are terrible and you're going to die. Now their state of repair may be up for debate, but the regulators are all solid. A couple brands have gone obsolete, but one of the nice things with some of the smaller companies is that they are taking good design practices into consideration. I.e. Scubapro 109's can be upgraded to use the same parts kits as the G250. The MK10+'s, 20's, and 25's all use the same HP seat. All of Apeks TX/ATX/XTX series regulators use the same parts kits. Deep6 Signature uses the same parts kits as the HOG D3, the Deep6 DGX uses the same one as the HOG D1, which is also compatible at least unofficially with Apeks TX series and the older Dive Rite RG series regulators. Very little is going out and trying to reinvent the wheel, just refine it a bit.

 

[The Chairman]

Conversations like this are part of the reason why, 5 years in, I still don't own my own regs.

Find a diver you admire: buy what they have. You really can't go wrong and it'll be easier to imitate them.

 

[drrich2]

I have noticed that there is a huge bias against ScubaPro among divers. Is it just because it costs more? I would think that diving equipment would not be something one would want to save money on.

Over the years I've watched ScubaPro discussed on Scuba Board, and been reminded of it by those 'Deep down, you want the best' ScubaPro adds in magazines. For important gear, I consider:

1.) Quality - Does it work well and is it durable? Is it as good or better than competitors in a decent price range (e.g.: that Atomic Aquatics jacket BCD looks like one great jacket...if money is no object. For me, that much money is an object, so I don't dive that).
2.) Cost - Is it decently priced vs. competitors for what you get? If it's more expensive, what are you getting for that money? I may pay more for 'extras' I want (e.g.: Atomic's Cobalt computer), or not (Atomic BCD, $1,500 slightly lighter reg.s with more titanium).
3.) Does the company stand behind their products? Others have discussed the 'parts of life' and marketing.
4.) Do I like how the company treats customers? If memory serves, ScubaPro was formerly resistive to online sales, trying to restrict the market to their authorized dealers, which was thought to keep prices up. I didn't like that. What I heard of the 'parts for life' program bit. ScubaPro bought the SeaBear company, which had a couple of promising new dive computers (the H3 and T1) coming out, and seemed to effectively kill them. Anyone heard differently? Some competitors historically made it easier to service your own reg.s.
5.) The term 'ScubaPro Platinum Dealer' is touted to the public like some mark of excellence, but basically means ScubaPro leverages pricing to gain exclusivity and deny you the choice of competitor product at that store. Not unique to them; at many restaurants you can choose Coke or Pepsi products, not both.
6.) Is the product unique? No. Like some other recreational divers, I tend to be foot-heavy and I like neutral fins, plus I've got really big feet. Jet fins aren't a good match for me; Deep 6 Eddy fins are.

Out of all that, I get the impression ScubaPro has a good rep., sustained over time, for making a number of quality products. So do a number of competitors.

There are so many small operations, like Deep6, VDH, DGX Custom versions of Deep6, OMS, and DiveRite, Freedom Plates, and I know nothing about these, except a bunch of "some guys" on scubaboard who are huge fans and it turns out to be because their buddy owns the company. What happens when that guy decides he doesn't want to do this anymore? SP may have a reputation for difficult customer service, but do any of us not expect them to at least still exist and have parts 5 years from now?

True, but they're not the only brand likely to still exist in 5 years.

On Scuba Board, many members ask what gear to buy, and will purchase new. It can be hard to predict what brand/model/condition gear will be locally available on Craig's List in another state, whether he/she can judge it, etc... So, when someone asks what to buy, assuming new purchase, no special deals for instructors or dive shop staff, etc...what case is there to be made for buying which ScubaPro product, as a clearly better option than competitors?

I'm not saying there's never a case; I'm asking. The answer (or lack thereof) may help address the O.P.'s question.

Richard.

 

[kmarks]

@kmarks that I do.

First question: How in the world do you get MK25s for $50?

Second, Scubapro has a vast product line with lots of different prices and I'm sure there are differences in performance, too. How do you feel the Deep6 regs fit on that spectrum? I know you compared the Signature to the MK25; do you really feel like one is just as good as the other? Or do you feel like the Signature is really good, and a better value, but maybe not quite the same? (not trying to argue, but actually accidentally hijacking the thread to get more info on whether or not I should add Deep 6 to my wishlist)

 

[tbone1004]

First question: How in the world do you get MK25s for $50?

Second, Scubapro has a vast product line with lots of different prices and I'm sure there are differences in performance, too. How do you feel the Deep6 regs fit on that spectrum? I know you compared the Signature to the MK25; do you really feel like one is just as good as the other? Or do you feel like the Signature is really good, and a better value, but maybe not quite the same? (not trying to argue, but actually accidentally hijacking the thread to get more info on whether or not I should add Deep 6 to my wishlist)

you are patient, know the right people, and pull the trigger quickly.

If I were to buy new, I would unquestionably buy Deep6 and I would leave the MK25 out because I don't like unsealed pistons. I think the second stages breathe as well if not better than anything Scubapro makes, and the first stage doesn't make a huge difference as long as it is easy to service, cheap to service, and has good hose routing. Hose routing is identical, the Deep6 is easier to service *anyone who's done the MK20's/25's know how finicky that blasted piston o-ring is*, and cost of service is about the same *for the average consumer it's about the same, though Deep6 has some really interesting service options coming up*.

Shoot me a PM or email if you want any other info

 

[JamesBon92007]

I have noticed that there is a huge bias against ScubaPro among divers. Is it just because it costs more? I would think that diving equipment would not be something one would want to save money on.

I have nothing against ScubaPro but I'm always trying to save money so I can spend it on diving instead. Personally I think ScubaPro has made some really good stuff and some not-so-good stuff.

 

[2airishuman]

Second, Scubapro has a vast product line with lots of different prices and I'm sure there are differences in performance, too.

You've already fallen for the essential con. Aside from exceptional use cases and minor differences that most people wouldn't even notice, all modern regulator sets perform equally well in all conditions provided that they are properly serviced and tuned.

There are differences in internal design, DIN vs. Yoke, hose routing, number of ports, turret or not, ease of service, availability of service, how well the exhaust is directed away, whether there's an external adjustment knob and venturi lever, whether the 2nd stage is reversible, ease of 2nd stage service underwater (to deal with a stick or something wedged in the purge button or diaphragm, etc.

How do you feel the Deep6 regs fit on that spectrum?

There is no spectrum. Deep6 regs are ok and are based on a proven design that has also been used by HOG, Apeks, Dive Rite, and others. Many people have stated that all four regs are actually manufactured by Well Marine Diver. The Deep6 version has some nice upgrades, some for longevity of internal parts, and some like a metal DIN handwheel rather than the plasticky one that just makes it a tad easier to use. Deep6 has a unique service model. If it works for you, great.

 

[David Wilson]

As a snorkelling traditionalist, I recently acquired a pair of Scubapro rubber full-foot fins, which are oem'd in Taiwan:

Their sizes goes as high as EUR 46-48, which permits me to wear socks or booties underneath. They are great fins, but I am still left wondering why I had to order my pair from a US stockist, with the resulting additional shipping expenses, because Scubapro won't sell this particular model in Europe in general and the UK in particular? Scubapro is not the only diving equipment company to impose such geographical restrictions on local availability of gear, but it still makes little sense to me in today's global market place.