"Correct Weighting" Identified as #1 Needed Improvement in SCUBA Diving

[The Chairman]

The only reason I can think of that it would be dangerous

Be careful: What you don't know or refuse to acknowledge can hurt and even kill you. Reiterating the same nonsense over and over while people patiently point out how it's dangerous doesn't make you right: it makes you look foolish.

Here's another reason for teaching Scuba with a BC: it's required by every modern training agency. You might think you're smarter than they are, but most reasonable people would disagree. In fact, I doubt you could find six instructors on this forum who would agree with you. You might not be able to find even one.

You dive without a BCD at your own peril.

 

[TMHeimer]

Your BCD completely fails at depth as a hole in it occurs. You have air (gas), so you start swimming up. Too much weight? Drop a little at a time. Proceed up again until you have the correct amount of weight for a safe ascent. In the tropics and no weight to drop and using a steel tank?--could be a problem: If too deep for a CESA, perhaps in that situation you should not be using a steel tank and maybe have a BC with 2 bladders? If not, you've got to jettison everything and CESA up the best you can with fins and a bathing suit only. If you have a wetsuit, you can get the right amount of weight for ascending with an empty BC by dropping some. Not enough ditchable weight?--poor planning.

How does being efficient diving without a BC change any of that?

I'm sure people have dived without BCs in my get up-- 7 mil farmer john wetsuit, hood, mitts (AL80 tank). Wetsuit fairly new. I need 42 pounds of lead (this is correct, as per many weight checks--I was down to 37 with my old suit). I would not want to be wearing 42 pounds without a BCD (my buoyancy is fine--I rarely use the LPI at depth, just lungs). Then there are those with drysuits......

I'm not saying there's something wrong with diving without a BC--it may have some advantage in some way to make newer divers think more exactly about weighting, trim, lung use. I used to think I had some kind of advantage driving an automatic transmission because I learned on a stick shift and drove one for 15 years. Now I just think back to all that extra stuff I was doing with my right hand and left foot "automatically", to get the same result as with the automatic.

 

[soggybadger]

I thought that the development of equipment in scuba was to help make the sport safer and less demanding. Why regress?

 

[soggybadger]

Since you are not actually calling it "stupid" I can't address that however I would like to know just why you consider it dangerous. Are you teaching scuba diving to people who don't know how to swim? When I took my original scuba course being able to swim was a requirement, both above and under the water. We did not have a BC or other flotation device but knew of the existence of the Mae West type of vest but I don't know of very many divers who actually wore them. If things were that bad there was always the quick-release on the weight belt. Not having a BC was never an issue during the classes or with anyone I ever went diving with. Are there some statistics that show that more people used to drown during basic scuba courses than they do now? We didn't have the internet back then but we did have other divers to talk to and if there was an incident the story usually spread fairly quickly.

Are there way more people learning to dive now?

 

[REVAN]

Be careful: What you don't know or refuse to acknowledge can hurt and even kill you. Reiterating the same nonsense over and over while people patiently point out how it's dangerous doesn't make you right: it makes you look foolish.... You dive without a BCD at your own peril.

If I'm not mistaken, you cave dive. Isn't that more dangerous than doing a simple recreational dive without a BC? I think I've heard you talk about diving a rebreather. If you rebreather dive, that is also more dangerous than diving without a BC, even if it's on the same shallow open water dive that I'd do with my 80 on a harness?

It's all about risk management. I wouldn't cave dive without a BC, but then again I just won't cave dive. When I was younger, I was interested in it, but not any more. I don't dive in caves, I don't dive deep anymore (except for freediving). I just want to swim underwater in a warm beautiful ocean and enjoy it. I don't want to work hard when exploring, or drag around a lot of unnecessary equipment. I want to swim with as little effort as necessary. A harness setup lets me do that with superior performance, and performance offsets risk.

Remember when I said...

If diving instructors were going to teach this method, they'd all have to go back into training themselves, and they just aren't going to do that. They will fight it aggressively and with every excuse in their arsenal to make sure that it doesn't happen.

Excellent effort!

So, if instructors will never be on board with teaching proper weighting to dive without using a BC, how are divers going to learn better weighting skills when the BC is always going to be there to cover up mistakes of overweight dive configurations? What do we use for the stick and carrot when the BC is part of the kit? Presently, there is a stick for being too light, but not much of a stick for being too heavy except in grossly overweight conditions, and only a teeny-tiny carrot for getting it right. The result, most everyone dives overweight, but within the manageable zone (most of the time). I don't see this changing.

 

[KenGordon]

Imagine the first pool session when you take a student last standing depth. They are wearing a swimming costume, a full cylinder, mask fins etc. Many will be naturally negatively buoyant.

Now let's say we are doing some skills and they don't like it and go to the surface. How do we maintain them on the surface?

Options include:

They fin.
They sink.

Are either of these good?

So we have to start teaching in a wetsuit? Now they can't stay down. So we add some lead....

All the points you make about about the advantages of no BC over having a BC can be addressed by using an appropriately small BC.

Divers rarely die because of equipment. Some die because it is the most strenuous thing they do and they are due. Mostly they die because they fail to follow their training.

Training and equipment have had many years to be adapted to take into account any new ways people came up with to kill themselves.

Having buoyancy on tap is one of those adaptions. You could successfully dive without a pressure gauge of any sort, an octopus or a computer. Maybe a watch to judge when to come up, but really you could say that once round the wreck will not take an hour so you'd be good.

But we don't generally try that, because it would be stupid and a wholly unnecessary risk.

That is how it was when I learned to dive. I was a child and learned in after school lessons. We had no BC in those lessons. We also had to tread water with our arms above our heads and swim lengths with 4kg weight belts before we were allowed near a snorkel. I did dives with an SPG and a capillary tube depth gauge. Honestly it is better now,

Your point about rebreather is also complete nonsense. You have no statistics about rebreather deaths doing the kind of dives you are talking about, you have no statistics about BC less dives and none, for these dives, about ordinary setups.

The only statistics about rebreather dives are for all dives, rebreather dives are typically higher risk due to depth and duration. There is no comparison with equivalent OC dives, let alone OC dive without any BC.

Yesterday I did two dives. A 20m wreck and a 12m drift. The vis was quite poor and it was completely dark past 15m. Various factors such as lobster pot ropes, old net, unlikely but possible accidental penetration made me very glad to be diving a rebreather. If I got stuck I would have had all day to get free. Would I have been safer on a single without a BC?

There is a lot to be said about how to train people such that they don't think the solution to being unable to stay down is more lead. Getting rid of the BC is not one of those things.

 

[The Chairman]

I thought that the development of equipment in scuba was to help make the sport safer and less demanding. Why regress?

Precisely!

If I'm not mistaken, you cave dive. Isn't that more dangerous than doing a simple recreational dive without a BC?

Not for me. Not even close. Same for diving a rebreather. They only become dangerous when you break the rules and/or ignore problems. Not only do I dive a BC, but I dive a double bladder BC.

So, if instructors will never be on board with teaching proper weighting to dive without using a BC, how are divers going to learn better weighting skills

Spoken like a non-instructor! You're twisting the study's conclusion. Most instructors on SB teach a balanced system as being the best solution... a diver should be able to swim their rig up without air in the bladder. We also teach the need for redundant buoyancy when you can't dive a balanced rig. You can determine, dive and teach proper weighting with a BC and enjoy the inherent safety benefits at the same time. There are lots of threads on SB on how to properly weight yourself. I know as I've participated in a number of them and have shared Dr Bob's Weight Titration many, many times.

Excellent effort!

Congratulating yourself? Really? You argue with a sign, take the wrong way home and you think congratulations are in order? Wow. You're the only one who thinks you make any sense. I guess that's the only way for you to get an "atta boy". Me? I thank everyone for all the "Thanks" I've been given in this thread. You guys get it and that's encouraging.

Make no doubt about it: instructors will fight tooth and nail for safety and against recidivist ideas. Rather than make crap up about why we're against something, why don't you ask us? Oh, you won't get the drama you're looking for but you will get the truth.

 

[soggybadger]

The Navy Diving Manual is what we used to learn deco diving. It was free to check out in the public library - there weren't agencies using untrained instructors to train untrained novices. You started by taking small bites and worked your way up using common sense and patience instead of instant gratification and a little plastic card that may have misinformed you about your ability.

A set of doubled up steel 72's with the bands and harness/regulator/manifold assembly is going to be about 13 # to the heavy when full. You've got a 1/4 inch Rubatex suit which wasn't nearly as spongy as today's stuff. So a good guestimate is you're going to only be about 9-10 # heavy at the start of the dive. At 100 ft you can take off your lead and leave it at the anchor line to fetch up again after you've nailed that 20# Flattie mom is counting on for dinner. A BCD wasn't necessary but having a strudy float to use on the surface was usually a good idea if someone got tired and needed to rest a bit. Hunting and killing unwilling gamefish can be exhausting.

Another thing is that also, many divers chose to use the doubled up 38's too which displace less and are even lighter when totally overfilled past the 1800 psi standard.

It makes me disappointed that almost all newcomers aren't trained and experienced skin divers before being considered for 'SCUBA" - BCD's should not be used in beginner training in the pool (IMHO) Proper weighting should be absolutely MASTERED in theory and during open water skin diving (diving without SCUBA in wetsuits) and where competent swimming skills can be evaluated by EXPERIENCED instructors - ( over 1000 dives in all conditions)

All this is just my .02

Bit cold here for learning in a wetsuit. Dry suit is the order of the day.

 

[Neilwood]

Bit cold here for learning in a wetsuit. Dry suit is the order of the day.

I did three dives in a wetsuit at the weekend (all around 35-40 minutes). Was possibly not my best decision ever although thanks to the very large and vigorously burning campfire I was toasty warm within a short time of surfacing.

Drysuit from now on I think

 

[soggybadger]

I did three dives in a wetsuit at the weekend (all around 35-40 minutes). Was possibly not my best decision ever although thanks to the very large and vigorously burning campfire I was toasty warm within a short time of surfacing.

Drysuit from now on I think

I did three dives in a wetsuit at the weekend (all around 35-40 minutes). Was possibly not my best decision ever although thanks to the very large and vigorously burning campfire I was toasty warm within a short time of surfacing.

Drysuit from now on I think

Yes drysuit and yes you are slightly unhinged imo i have a woodburning stove in my van so that I can thaw out between dives. Nothing like a real fire unless you are the diver in a laminate suit that decides to lean against the flue pipe whilst it is clearly glowing red hot. Painful and expensive.