"Correct Weighting" Identified as #1 Needed Improvement in SCUBA Diving

[JamesBon92007]

I don't think he's an instructor, so he has not tried to try this with students. All of the instructors in this thread have indicated that this is a point not worth making. I would call it stupid, but I might hurt his feelings. I do feel it's dangerous to have students in OW without anything to float them easily on the surface and properly weighting your student is enough to get almost all the air out of a BC while diving. So, we'll leave it at dangerous and avoid calling it stupid.

Since you are not actually calling it "stupid" I can't address that however I would like to know just why you consider it dangerous. Are you teaching scuba diving to people who don't know how to swim? When I took my original scuba course being able to swim was a requirement, both above and under the water. We did not have a BC or other flotation device but knew of the existence of the Mae West type of vest but I don't know of very many divers who actually wore them. If things were that bad there was always the quick-release on the weight belt. Not having a BC was never an issue during the classes or with anyone I ever went diving with. Are there some statistics that show that more people used to drown during basic scuba courses than they do now? We didn't have the internet back then but we did have other divers to talk to and if there was an incident the story usually spread fairly quickly.

 

[The Chairman]

Since you are not actually calling it "stupid" I can't address that

My hands are kind of flat from sitting on them all day... but I'm committed to not expressing my inner most feelings here. Can ya feel me?

I would like to know just why you consider it dangerous.

When I was but a lad, I could not afford a buoyancy device and I didn't need any weights to dive. At the end of the dive, I had to always work to keep my head above water. It was tiring, but stopping was not much of an option. Was I negative? Not much, but I def was a bit. I saw the horse collar give way to the BCD but really didn't understand them until I finally got certified. WOW!!!
So, BCs actually perform two functions: they keep you neutral when you are below the surface and buoyant when you're on the surface. I've had enough time diving without a BC to know a good thing when I see it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

 

[soggybadger]

My hands are kind of flat from sitting on them all day... but I'm committed to not expressing my inner most feelings here. Can ya feel me?

When I was but a lad, I could not afford a buoyancy device and I didn't need any weights to dive. At the end of the dive, I had to always work to keep my head above water. It was tiring, but stopping was not much of an option. Was I negative? Not much, but I def was a bit. I saw the horse collar give way to the BCD but really didn't understand them until I finally got certified. WOW!!!
So, BCs actually perform two functions: they keep you neutral when you are below the surface and buoyant when you're on the surface. I've had enough time diving without a BC to know a good thing when I see it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

Felt

 

[TMHeimer]

My hands are kind of flat from sitting on them all day... but I'm committed to not expressing my inner most feelings here. Can ya feel me?

When I was but a lad, I could not afford a buoyancy device and I didn't need any weights to dive. At the end of the dive, I had to always work to keep my head above water. It was tiring, but stopping was not much of an option. Was I negative? Not much, but I def was a bit. I saw the horse collar give way to the BCD but really didn't understand them until I finally got certified. WOW!!!
So, BCs actually perform two functions: they keep you neutral when you are below the surface and buoyant when you're on the surface. I've had enough time diving without a BC to know a good thing when I see it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this out.

I, too am negative. I've gone on and on many times about being unable to do the hands out DM stamina test in fresh water until hearing about drown-proofing. I was taught to float on my back in salt water as a young boy, and can do this, but barely enough to keep my nose out to breathe. Of course this is all without a wetsuit on. If I were stranded in the middle of Lake Erie I often wonder how long I'd last continually drown-proofing. Probably drown while thinking about a BCD.

 

[KenGordon]

My understanding of REVAN's point that he is trying to make is that diving without a BC is a skill that might actually help some divers achieve better buoyancy control while they are using a BC (or not). He is pointing out that not only is it possible, but under certain circumstances it is desirable and sometimes a BC is simply not necessary. I find his comments to be an appropriate response to DAN's #1 Needed Improvement.

I think his point is backwards. While progression is a good thing and introducing stuff slowly helps, it is also important to train for a reasonable approximation of how you will actually dive. At some point that means knowing how to accommodate the difference in weight between the start and end of a dive, and probable between the surface and the bottom.

I was tempted to take the piss and suggest starting them in a drysuit on a rebreather. Once they can manage a length of the pool without popping to the surface with three bags of air a little BCD would be no challenge. However, this thread has been diverted from an important learning point into total uselessness already.

 

[george_austin]

Just for the record, I was really only asking what george_austin meant by the term so that I could understand exactly what he meant with the statement in which he used the term "skin diver".

When I applied for SCUBA certification - which actually meant a short interview with the lead instructor at a pretty renowned dive shop close to the beach in Southern California - he kind of looked me over and said "we don't really take kids here for that - no offense meant but it's a rigorous course and there's a lot of swimming involved. Most of our students are guys we already know. Tell you what, kid, - go see this guy who gives a summer long skin diving course up at LA County Dept of Parks and Recreational and if you can stick with it, come back here and we'll see what we can do"

I took the course which was about 5 weekends and change- it was a great course in identifying hazardous marine life, skin diving (snorkeling) technique, timed distance swimming, breath hold competitions, rescue, mouth to mouth resuscitation, knot tying and seamanship stuff. and at the end, a boat trip to Catalina and a certificate - which I wish I still had! I was a qualified Skin Diver as defined by Los Angeles County Dept of Parks and Recreation.

The next summer after a lot more practice in local waters, I went back to Laguna Sea Sports and pretty much had my a$$ handed to me by the instructor (Carter Bruising NAUI # 60 something) - I squeaked by and barely passed the course but I was 14 and the class was mostly Marines from Camp Pendleton and a couple expert beachcomber types.

 

[REVAN]

Since you are not actually calling it "stupid" I can't address that however I would like to know just why you consider it dangerous.

If the instructor can't do it himself, then he won't be able to teach it either. To try to do so would be dangerous, or even stupid, depending on the severity.

 

[soggybadger]

If the instructor can't do it himself, then he won't be able to teach it either. To try to do so would be dangerous, or even stupid, depending on the severity.

Fighting talk?

 

[The Chairman]

If the instructor can't do it himself, then he won't be able to teach it either. To try to do so would be dangerous, or even stupid, depending on the severity.

I might have more dives without a BC than you have dives. Hell, I used to dive without an octo and pressure gauge too. That don't make them good ideas. It's not so much "I can't" as I'm smart enough now that "I won't". Hopefully the difference isn't too subtle for you.

 

[REVAN]

I might have more dives without a BC than you have dives. Hell, I used to dive without an octo and pressure gauge too. That don't make them good ideas. It's not so much "I can't" as I'm smart enough now that "I won't". Hopefully the difference isn't too subtle for you.

@The Chairman ,
I wasn't singling you out with my comment, simply giving my response to the comment by @JamesBon92007

Since you are not actually calling it "stupid" I can't address that however I would like to know just why you consider it dangerous.

The only reason I can think of that it would be dangerous is if it is being taught by someone who doesn't know what they are doing. After much reflection on the subject, that is probably the biggest obstacle that makes this a non-start idea. There aren't enough instructors proficient at diving like this who can teach it. Almost everyone diving today was taught to be dependent on the BCD, and that includes the bulk of the active scuba instructors. If diving instructors were going to teach this method, they'd all have to go back into training themselves, and they just aren't going to do that. They will fight it aggressively and with every excuse in their arsenal to make sure that it doesn't happen.

I've gotten comfortable doing recreational diving in a simple tank harness and with no BC system other than my lungs and regulator. I've learned a lot about weight management doing this, and it has actually made my diving easier and more enjoyable. As such, the first thing that came to mind when I read the DAN report was that if others learned to dive without a BCD, they would also learn a lot about weight management, positively addressing the problem as defined by DAN.

This can happen only two ways. Either they are taught how to dive without a BCD, or they figure it out on their own. We all need to dive within our limits. If someone is taught a diving method that is fully dependent on a BCD to plan and execute dives, they may not be comfortable trying to figure out how to dive a basic harness on their own. Some instruction would be nice, but only if it is from someone who is competent and knows what they are doing regarding this method. Cautiously figuring things out on your own is probably better than having someone send you down a bad path out of ignorance or stupidity.