When No to Pass a Student

[wetb4igetinthewater]

This whole thread brought up an interesting philosophical discussion between my husband and I. I don't know the answer but maybe someone here does.

When you pay for OW at a dive shop, are you paying for
- "Open Water Certification" (in which case they are responsible for teaching you until you have adequate skills to pass or even excel)
- "Open Water Instruction" (where they are teaching you the skills and you get a cert regardless of whether or not you are competent)
- Or "Open Water Testing" (with no responsibility to spend time teaching you but will pass/fail you depending on how you did).

I'm not trying to start a war. I'm honestly just curious.

That is a legitimate question. But I feel there is a fourth option: the operation/instructor has the responsibility (and fulfills) of teaching you, whether one passes and thus are certified is purely up to that individuals ability. There is no time for remedial training, at least with confined water.

I think that a disconnect often exists where students think they are paying for the first, but many dive ops are actually offering the second, third, or fourth.

So the first one tends to be much more expensive, are either private or small group. People shop often on price alone, thinking that the services rendered are the same. But they are not, not even close. I wish this was the norm, but it isn't.

The second is often where the instructors livelihood depends on the number of certifications they can generated. So as long as a student didn't drown during the course, they get a card.

The third, I can't really see a scenario where this exists, honestly. Someone may chime in with one.

I think the fourth that I describe is most common, as in some locations access/cost to a pool is an issue. Sometimes students who don't make the cut, may or may not pay a nominal fee to do the same class again in the future (depending on room on existing scheduled courses). Now there can be times where a student drops from the open water dives for some reason (could be an emergency, could be the Puget Sound is too darn cold and they decide on a dry suit upgrade or wait until the weather improves and water warms up) where they wind up having a (semi-)private class. It is then up to the individual instructor on how much effort they wish to place in a student. And that varies a lot.

 

[KatieMac]

The third, I can't really see a scenario where this exists, honestly.

My inclusion of the third came from a reluctance to admit what I have heard really happens (the 5th category) - the joke that PADI stands for Pay And Dive Immediately. And I feel that many people think that is what they are paying for - a certificate that says they are allowed to (not that they are able to).

I was fortunately enough to have the first kind of DI. But I know I will sometimes be diving with people who have been certified under category 5.

 

[DevonDiver]

This whole thread brought up an interesting philosophical discussion between my husband and I. I don't know the answer but maybe someone here does.

When you pay for OW at a dive shop, are you paying for
- "Open Water Certification" (in which case they are responsible for teaching you until you have adequate skills to pass or even excel)
- "Open Water Instruction" (where they are teaching you the skills and you get a cert regardless of whether or not you are competent)
- Or "Open Water Testing" (with no responsibility to spend time teaching you but will pass/fail you depending on how you did).

I'm not trying to start a war. I'm honestly just curious.

I think the clue is in the names:

1. You pay a diving instructor for:
a. Instruction
b. Certification
c. Assessment

2. You pay a scuba certifying agency for:
a. Certification
b. Instruction
c. Assessment

Hopefully, common sense dictates the answers to the above are easily seen.

However, what tends to happen is that instructors take students money and provide a minimal instruction, so that they can move directly to getting the agency to process the certification.

Thus, the agency does its job, at the behest of the instructor... But it is the instructor not fulfilling their role and responsibility prior to agency certification.

Why this can happen is a different question. Because it's the student's responsibility to ensure they're confident and competent in diving, before they accept a certification and end training.

Some students do merely seek a 'license' that empowers them to engage in the activity... and that license is often sought as cheaply and quickly as possible.

Some students do seek training and competency, but are misled by the instructor to believe its "normal" to feel overwhelmed and under-skilled upon completion of training. That's normally accompanied by some platitudes that the student needs to "go away and get more experience".

Experience shouldn't compensate for training shortfall. Experience is to develop beyond the baseline of safe competency and confidence that should result from training to certification level.

 

[sheeper]

We tell our students, at every level, "You pay for training. You EARN a certification".

 

[2airishuman]

I'm not an instructor. Still...

In the majority of cases, people who are not good candidates for diving can be identified in the first pool session.

Most people who aren't making progress will discontinue participation voluntarily.

Most people who pass with marginal skills will self-limit their diving activities and will conduct most of their diving where there is a divemaster or other qualified person to assist.

I've read the narratives. The accidents involving new divers with marginal skills typically involve dives with some combination of: unfamiliar equipment, poor visibility, current, inexperienced buddy, cold water, and deep water.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hello all,

Over the last few months I been diving with a lot of new divers. I have also attended a few classes with friends during their OW training. I watched a friend, in my opinion perform horribly in the pool, grotto and River environment. When we where done for the day, the instructor passed him and said, yesterday I would not dive with you, but you did better today, enough for me to think about diving with you.

Now my friend is retired military, and been in far worse situations in his life then the grotto. He never appeared to panic in the water, he just had zero control of himself on day one. There was no Buoyance control, even on surface floating he keep rolling around. Day 2 was better, but I still saw a lot of Buoyance control issues.

I befriended the Assistant Instructor during the class and he and I did some spear fishing this weekend. At one point my buddy came up in Convo, and said he I did not think he was close to coming out here. The AI agreed and told me they actually had to rescue my buddy during his last checkout dive.

I have another co-worker that I have dove with (Controlled Grotto/1 open water), that I also would not dive with in the open water again. The shorter version for this story was I watched him in the grotto and he was dog paddling all around again not a lot of buoyancy control, I never saw him during our OW trip as we had different partners, though I know they bailed on one dive because he could not get down.

These are 2 cases of friends that I have watched closely, but on the only cases I have seen. Now that I am preparing for my DM Cert and hope to do Instructor next year, I think I am getting a lot more aware of these scenarios.

For my military buddy, I believe I can help and improve him, we all have had mentors. Since I am not an instructor yet through, is it my place when things are IMO really bad and liability?

So again, how or where does one draw the line on pass or fail?

I'm retired now, but when I was teaching if I felt like I wouldn't dive with someone, I would not certify that person. NAUI (the agency I used to teach for) has what they call a "loved one standard". If you wouldn't feel comfortable with this person diving with someone you love at the certification level of the class, you should not pass them.

I've had many students over the years who needed more work than the standard curriculum called for. As long as they were willing to continue working at it, we'd schedule more dives ... until I was satisfied they were prepared. With two exceptions, all of the students I ever taught who I felt needed more work eventually passed the class. Those two exceptions were people who I felt were a danger to themselves or others more due to attitude than aptitude, and I told both of them I would not ever feel comfortable giving them a c-card with my name on it.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[wedivebc]

I'm not an instructor. Still...

In the majority of cases, people who are not good candidates for diving can be identified in the first pool session.

Most people who aren't making progress will discontinue participation voluntarily.

Most people who pass with marginal skills will self-limit their diving activities and will conduct most of their diving where there is a divemaster or other qualified person to assist.

I've read the narratives. The accidents involving new divers with marginal skills typically involve dives with some combination of: unfamiliar equipment, poor visibility, current, inexperienced buddy, cold water, and deep water.

I am an instructor and I`m afraid I disagree with all your above points.
I have worked with many divers who struggled in the beginning of their training. A few are now dive instructors and some really good one.

With the right coaching and a patient instructor many people derive great satisfaction out of overcoming obstacles. Self esteem is a large part of dive instruction.

The only students I have ever failed were the ones who`s lack of self-knowledge of their abilities (or lack thereof) would make them a liability to themselves. Many ego driven divers go way beyond their ability or experience level.

 

[japan-diver]

This question of what you are paying for is very simple:
You are paying for a course of instruction and evaluation- if you pass you EARN a certification. This is similar to any school -when I went to college I paid for and got classes and instruction and took tests if I passed I got a degree (which I did) if I had failed I would not have got a degree or my money back. If I needed extra classes to pass I could take them and pay more money. This is how it is supposed to work- attendance does not mean certification.

 

[sheeper]

I'm not an instructor. Still...

In the majority of cases, people who are not good candidates for diving can be identified in the first pool session.
.

I also disagree with that. Our shop had a student that failed her first pool session miserably. We put her with a different instructor and ran her thru again. Second time was worse than first. However, she really wanted to dive. Six months later, I took her in my OW class. With a little time and personal attention she became a rockstar. In a year she has not completed her Advanced and nitrox and is looking to start rescue. She has 40 dives in the year and is diving 100' wrecks. Her buoyancy and trim is great.
Of course, she had a great instructor but the important ingredient was her desire combined with my personal attention to her.

 

[MikadoWu]

First off, thank you everyone for providing their Feedback and PMs. Unlike math class of 2+2=4, certifying a student is much different. In my classroom or the soccer field, when I give students feedback or grades, one is not going to live or dive.

The rule of "Would I let this person dive with a loved One", is understandable yet just a confusing. It seems to be just like is this Boys Good Enough to date MY daughter or is this Girl Good enough for my Son. I know My standards for each case is different, as each child is different. In the end only time will tell, and you have to know each student separately.

Do our best and be as honest as we can be.