Input on our Accident and Incidents Forum... What do you want? How do you want it?

[The Chairman]

Hey ScubaBoard users and frequenters of the Accidents and Incidents forum. It's time we had a family discussion about this very forum, it's future and how it can best benefit the community. This discussion will come as a surprise to few and might even upset a few. That's OK, we need to discuss things. I'm hoping that @Rick Murchison as well as a few other mods will be joining us to give us some much needed insight and direction. However, this discussion is open to everyone. ScubaBoard is a place created by divers, for divers and driven by divers. I promise to be frank, but please don't take that as a personal attack when I ask pointed questions. Reading that last sentence, it might be more of a threat than a promise! All I ask is that you remain respectful and cordial. That doesn't mean you can't disagree... just don't be a prick about it.

Here are a list of questions I want answered.

• Why do you come here?
• Why do you post accidents and incidents? (This is especially for you, @DandyDon!)
• WHAT IS OUR MISSION? (in your words, please)
  
• Are we meeting your and the community's needs?
• What are we missing and why?
• How can we add that?
• What needs to be eliminated and why?
• How can we be more respectful to friends and survivors?
• Can we be more respectful without harming our mission?
• Currently, we don't allow names to be used unless released publicly first. Is this fair for the family? Is it fair for us? Is a change needed?

Please, please, please treat this as a family meeting. Be nice, but don't hold back. This is a time to tell us what we're doing right and what frustrates the piss out of you. If you don't speak up, then we can't consider your opinion. Will anything come out of this? Who knows? Give us a solution we can use and it just might. This is a charged topic for most of the industry. Some hate SB because we have the temerity to discuss the undiscussible. I've actually been kicked off an industry forum for bringing up some of these issues. I probably don't have to worry about that here and I believe this is an incredibly important discussion to have. So please: discuss already!

 

[Johnoly]

The A & I forum is the internet's largest “ CONTINUING EDUCATION COURSE “ on dive safety. Most professionals must attend yearly courses to keep current on procedures for work. Many topics taught in CE programs are repeats each year, but still important with the latest updates. Learning comes from group discussion and that is the mission of the A & I forum. If the A & I forum is removed or throttled, then you are damaging the continuing education value that is not taught anywhere else.

To improve it (and I don't know how this would work), but it would be good to some how install an “auto-popup box” that family/friends/non SB members would see 1st that will take them directly to a pre-setup thread for condolences and prayers & explain what the A & I is about. The box would pop up only if the forum software detected that the visitor was not a registered SB member{cookies?}, otherwise it would not pop-up.

 

[Diver0001]

Why do you come here

Honestly, I very seldom read A&I anymore. One of the reasons is that a certain member here seems to scour the deep net looking for every incident available world wide and posting it. It's like having a list of everything that goes wrong without any concrete opening for a useful discussion about it. It's oddly depressing that he is able to find so many incidents and it makes it sound like there is a new reason to be deeply worried about the state of the sport every day..... when in fact, there are probably more deaths from commuters having heart attacks on city buses than there are diving accidents but I don't worry about getting on a city bus. I actually know of a few that he didn't find but the point for me is that 9 times out of 10 (or maybe 99 times out of 100) there is nothing about the incident that could possibly be instructive and therefore my interest in this sub-forum has reached zero-level. At this point if an interesting topic did get posted I would probably miss it.

Why do you post accidents and incidents? (This is especially for you, @DandyDon!)

I have posted one in which I was personally involved because I felt I had some lessons learned to share. I have also participated in a number over the years when I felt that I had something to add to the discussion. As a past moderator I also participated in a few in order to try steering them away from unwarranted speculation and blaming.

WHAT IS OUR MISSION? (in your words, please)

It should be to analyse accidents for lessons learned that can be applied by divers and by instructors in order to make the sport safer. As it is, there doesn't seem to be good enough community leadership to make an analysis of even a clear-cut accident without speculation ruling the discussion.

Are we meeting your and the community's needs?

I don't have any particular needs in this area. I guess people who like to slow down and look at car accidents on the freeway will be interested.

What are we missing and why?

In my mind, if we assume that we should learn from the discussions then threads should only be started by people with 1st hand knowledge of the incident. As it is, there are a lot of discussions (and opinions) and very VERY few meaningful ones because nobody has the foggiest idea what actually happened, let alone what went wrong.

How can we add that?

as stated

What needs to be eliminated and why?

as stated, I think threads should only be started by people with 1st hand knowledge of the incident.

How can we be more respectful to friends and survivors?

You can't. That is a completely unrealistic expectation with regard to the open forum aspect of the discussions. Friends and survivors need to be warned to avoid the discussions. Nothing in an accident analysis (if done right) and absolutely nothing about an open forum discussion involving a lot of theory spinning and speculation is going to be the least bit comfortable to read for people who were close to the victim.

Can we be more respectful without harming our mission?

as stated

Currently, we don't allow names to be used unless released publicly first. Is this fair for the family? Is it fair for us? Is a change needed?

This needs to remain in place. If the names are not public domain then they should not be revealed in a discussion forum.

R..

 

[bowlofpetunias]

I come to A&I primarily because I care about people but also because I want to learn

I post in these threads mostly in an effort to facilitate learning in a considerate and respectful way

The Mission of SB? To provide a way for divers from around the world to connect, share and learn.
or SB A&I? To provide a way to learn from scuba incidents and thereby promote dive safety

I think we do meet the needs but could certainly do it with more consideration for victims and survivors

I think some people seem to be more interested in chest pounding and forget that real people are on the receiving side of their comments. This IMHO makes people reluctant to post because they feel attacked even tho it may not be meant as an attack.

It also seem to me that sometimes people miss the point that survivors and witnesses don't OWE it to the community to post in A&I. There are many reasons not to post such as the emotional pain of the event or fear (justifiable or not) of legal consequences.

I certainly found it easier to provide information through a couple trusted Mods rather than directly when we were involved in a dive death. I think making this option clearly available may encourage more information being shared. The problem can be that like in our case the information was provided but not accepted by those who had pet theories they chose to adhere to.

We need to eliminate the finger pointing and POV Warriors. Perhaps it should be harder to post (permission required to start and withdrawn/suspended for breaking the special rules). Threads about Scuba, Snorkle or Freediving incidents in different sub forums?

How can we be more respectful? I tried to address that in the sticky Accidents and Incident Threads: Victim Perspective

I think being more respectful will help our Mission rather than harm it by making it easier for those "in the know" to post safely both from the emotional and legal position. It is also important to note that the "victims or witnesses" need to accept that their emotional state may cause them to take things the wrong way. They also need to accept some responsibility for determining if they are in a suitable state to be involved in the threads. I certainly don't mean that a disclaimer can be justification for insensitive posts but that all the onus can't be on the posters to candy coat things too much either.

I think the current policy regarding when a name can be posted is an excellent one.

 

[Storker]

if we assume that we should learn from the discussions then threads should only be started by people with 1st hand knowledge of the incident.

Are you certain about that? I, for one, have learned quite a bit also from reported incidents where those with 1st hand knowledge weren't participating in the threads. The first that springs to my mind is the thread about the Plura cave diving fatalities.

 

[sheeper]

A&I should be a very important forum. It should be a place where news of accidents can be shared with the intent of learning from these incidents.
What it should not be is where we call victims "stupid" or make completely uninformed statements about the cause of an accident. Balmecasting, wishcasting and such just don't belong.

I'm an investigator and from time to time investigate dive related incidents and I would like the forum to be more useful.
Maybe set the forum up so only an approved group of SB members can post but all can view? That way we might keep the useless comments out?

For that matter, I'd be happy to help with the forum

 

[Diver0001]

Are you certain about that? I, for one, have learned quite a bit also from reported incidents where those with 1st hand knowledge weren't participating in the threads. The first that springs to my mind is the thread about the Plura cave diving fatalities.

Well..... I at the risk of throwing out the baby with the bathwater, you could stop a lot of nonsense discussions with such a rule. Over the years, the most instructive discussions I've seen were the ones where someone with 1st hand knowledge was involved. That's not all of them, as you point out, but where would you draw the line?

R..

 

[kelemvor]

• Why do you come here?

Posts here show up in the "new posts" result when I click that link. If the thread title sounds interesting, I'll read it like any thread. I rarely search out the A&I or any section specifically. I read accident threads when I see them sometimes because I'm curious to find out what happened and hope to learn something. *often because of the way threads are titled I don't realize it's an accident thread until I've read half the message*. Something that says "Dive Accident" just like we have "For Sale" or "Want to Buy" might be useful here.

• Why do you post accidents and incidents? (This is especially for you, @DandyDon!)

I don't think I have.

• WHAT IS OUR MISSION? (in your words, please)

Information dissemination and discussion of incidents with an eye toward prevention.

• Are we meeting your and the community's needs?

As best you can, I think. It would be nice if more information was released. I don't think that's something you can directly control. With most accidents, all the details aren't released for an extremely long time - if ever.

• What are we missing and why?

The first thing that comes to mind is a standard titling method akin to the sale section where threads are titled "For Sale" or "Want to Buy". Those of us who see threads via the "new posts" link would benefit from this.

Details are also sometimes missing.

• How can we add that?

Hire a full time investigative reporter? Other than that, I think it's something we've got to live with.

• What needs to be eliminated and why?

I can't think of anything.

• How can we be more respectful to friends and survivors?

That would have to be either up to the users who post in a thread or require even more heavy handed moderation. I fear excessive moderation might ruin useful discussion though.

• Can we be more respectful without harming our mission?

I can think of one way to do that. Set the A&I section so that users can "opt out" or maybe go so far as make it "opt in" like the pub. I prefer "Opt Out". As I mentioned before, there are other methods of accessing A&I than going to that section directly. I've read lots of accident posts and I don't think I've ever deliberately visited the A&I section of scubaboard.

• Currently, we don't allow names to be used unless released publicly first. Is this fair for the family? Is it fair for us? Is a change needed?

The drawback to not releasing names it that searching for information outside of scubaboard is difficult without the name. That's what you've got to have in order to accurately correlate an incident on many different sites (for example a news report site). I'm just not sure how you mitigate family concerns otherwise. Since that seems to be a unique rule to scubaboard, IF the accident can be correlated it's often possible to find a name and further search. Unless it's a child, most other sites will have the name listed.

 

[Bennno]

As it is, there doesn't seem to be good enough community leadership to make an analysis of even a clear-cut accident without speculation ruling the discussion.

You can't do 'clear-cut accident without speculation'. There is always gonna be some speculation. Last thing people need is more 'leadership' on SB. There is way too much censorship going on as it is, most discussions are controlled by PADI/SSI instructor and or Mods, even the discussions about cave diving accidents... people aren't that stupid, they can decide for themselves whether something is BS or not.

As to how to protect the family, I don't think there is a way, it's gonna be hard for them to read.

 

[The Chairman]

In my mind, if we assume that we should learn from the discussions then threads should only be started by people with 1st hand knowledge of the incident.

Are you certain about that?

I certainly found it easier to provide information through a couple trusted Mods rather than directly when we were involved in a dive death. I think making this option clearly available may encourage more information being shared. The problem can be that like in our case the information was provided but not accepted by those who had pet theories they chose to adhere to.

First hand knowledge (eye witness) trumps anything else. No doubt about it. I've started threads with information from eye witnesses that didn't want to open themselves up to litigation or unwanted scrutiny. I am given a lot of information due to my position in the community. Right or wrong, I refuse to divulge anything told to me in confidence. I assume it's all in confidence unless told otherwise. However, quite often the eye witnesses want the full story to be known and I don't mind accommodating them. Rob, I appreciate your frustration. I'm not sure how to address it without virtually eliminating the entire forum.