What would you report on?

[Unbent]

I was a diver on a vacation recently where a diver died. It was not the fault of anyone, purely an undetected medical condition. It is posted here, the speculation and conjecture made me not wish to join the thread but post a question as to what and who to report the truth about an accident/incident. If I were to join in on a thred in this board and the topic gets spun so fast my words mean nothing (as we've seen happen numbers of times) who then learns from first hand accounts.
Do I contact DAN to keep them up to date on such matters? But if someone else already has done this then dose it confuse the record keepers? Do I post here to inform all divers as to the how and why? Then deal with the you should have and the why didn't they, when clearly the ones typing have never dealt with the decisions made at a time like this... Do I just keep my fingers still and not say anything and no one benefits for the experience?
We all know someone or are guilty ourselves of filling out a liability waver falsely weather it be for diving or bowling, just to not be excluded in our own indulgence.
I pose this to you all: what would you do, given a real life death in first person? I would like nothing more then to inform all on this untimely death, but do not wish to be Internet beaten for posting the truth..

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Excellent question and topic and I'll be curious to see where it goes.

I think the "rule" ought to be that if you opined in other threads, you should answer in this one so what we know what standards/philosophies or reporting are. And you might even break the question/answer down into to parts: (1) Who do you tell to get the info out, and (2) Who do you tell if you think there was something done wrong that affected the outcome?

- Ken

 

[drrich2]

Discussion of topics often expand into broader issues of legitimate interest, not necessarily a bad thing.

As for the topic getting 'spun' and your words meaning nothing, you ask who learns from 1st hand accounts? I believe the earlier you identify yourself & disclose what you wish to share, the more impact you're likely to have. But just what impact are you trying to have? Are you just trying to inform the discussion, or limit it to what you perceive to the pertinent/relevant?

Unless you were watching the incident, and had the knowledge and experience to follow & understand what went on without missing anything important, what's your confidence level that you 'know the real truth' and others should accept your word on the matter?

What, and why, are you concerned about posting that you'll get bashed 'for posting the truth' about?

If all you post is a simple account of your observations in good faith, and accept that others may question or be skeptical of some of your impressions, I don't see a reason to expect a hard time. You say what you saw & heard, don't over-state or expect your interpretations to be regarded as compelling, and let others think & speak as they will.

Now, if you think you understand what happened & have an ego investment in your view, and get defensive when your view is challenged, then yes, it could get contentious. And if you expect others to confine their discussion to your version of events, you may be disappointed.

Richard.

P.S.: Be mindful not everyone likes to 'get involved.' If you start giving a witness report, I suppose you could get subpoenaed to testify in a court case. Be careful what you say; wouldn't want any slander charges raised.

 

[The Chairman]

Sure, we get a little passionate about our POVs. However, as an eye witness, you get to tell everyone else to suck it, because YOU WERE THERE. I give EWs far more credence than any armchair quarterback could ever hope for.

Now, to answer your question: there's no real mechanism unless you see someone break a law or a standard. Even then, you might find your perception of what happened not very welcome. Sad, but true.

 

[Unbent]

The point here is not to have impact or ego, but simply to report facts as they happened, first hand and without bias. The threads can quickly go from armchair speculation to fantastical conjecture without regard to the impact the comments may have to the players involved. As stated, it is easy to hypothesize about an event or situation when one has never been involved in one...it is quit another to live it and indure the rantings of others about the things they know nothing about. But I digress....the question is: to whom should a first hand report be made to, the boards or DAN or both? We should all learn from our own AND others experiences. But when the threads get spun so far from topic the lessons get lost.
I fully expect and welcome any legal involvement that may come of this incident, and would gladly give my eye witness account of the events, as no one was to blame here.

 

[Littlerayray]

I was involved in a rescue that tragically turned into a recovery of an experienced diver I didn't know him I was just doing what I felt should have been done I kept to myself till all the hype of the event calmed down then feeling frustrated about a man who was a prominent figure in our community who passed away so tragically I called the local newspaper with the widows blessing I might add to tell my side of the story I now have an amazing but tragic story I tell knew divers to make them aware of how deadly an embolism could be
that being said I would hear people talking about it when I would get my hair cut or get a coffee or just about anywhere the story made national headlines here in Canada no one knew who I was since I was only described as the good samaritan if I felt like their views were wrong and if I was in the mood and had the time I would politely correct them and the main reason I joined scuba board was because I wanted to tell my story I needed outlets fot my frustration since every action I took was perfect and I still couldn't save the man's life but I found the thread of his accident on here and explained who I was and my side of the story I didn't get berated or Internet bullied people were respectful people really do appreciate first hand accounts just post truthfully and only what you feel comfortable with telling the public their were things from that event that only a handfull of people know about that I actually saw the horrible details don't need to be shared but I feel the true story must especially if it is misinterpreted and people are getting the wrong idea

 

[Altamira]

I really like and appreciate SB members reporting of dive incidents and accidents, and any follow-up first hand accounts, because that information provides a good start point for learning and analysis. What I find absurd is the apparent inability of so many people to admit to themselves that they really do not have a clue as to what happened, yet feel the need to opine on their vision of possible causes of this or that accident or death. These unfounded opinions reminds me a lot of TV newscasters and their paid talking head "experts" who come up with a whole host of mostly erroneous possible or probable causes five minutes after the incident. One thing I have learned from a lengthy career in military and commercial aviation, and reading more aircraft accident reports than I care to think about, is that erroneous information, non-factual hypotheses and rumors based on BS can cause a lot of harm to the families, survivors, and reputations of people involved. Early in my military career, after a fatal accident involving one of our wing's pilots, the Wing Commander told all of our pilots "If you don't have any real facts to contribute to solving the question of what caused this young man to crash , then shut the &^*% up. You are not helping anyone." Forty five years later, I still think that was good advice.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Wow great to bring this question for discussion. I certainly relate to your concerns.

I think there are a few things that influence the answer I would give. I wish I had been involved in less A&I threads than I have. ( I believe A&I is a valuable place to learn and unfortunately there are all too many Accidents and incidents to learn from.) Some I have posted in, one involved the death of a friend diving with us ( I did not post personally), two involved people known to me, some I have read but not posted in to avoid any chance of perceived conflict because I was an assigned moderator.

I have been approached by people involved in incidents for support and advice as well.

The above explains the vantage point I answer this question from.

If the person involved was a close friend or family member A&I is very painful. There is good reason the Special Rules advise family members not to read the threads. Unfortunately they and friends are likely to do just that. They will be reading trying to make sense of their loss. I have found myself reluctant to post information about a number of incidents where I knew the person and felt there was little to gain from posting in terms of lessons learned. Is there really any point in posting that X diver with less than 15 lifetime dives diving an advanced current prone deep dive did not have the skill set necessary for the dive? You don't have to be psychic to know the evils of "Trust me dives", Diver's being responsible for their own safety, greedy Operators soapboxes will come out. I sometimes question that there is any value in rehashing those discussions! I guess it is a personal decision in these cases if a person posts info "feeds info in through others" or chooses not to reveal information.

If a person was an "uninvolved witness" with no emotional link to the person and no level of responsibility with their dive (not a dive buddy or guide) they are more likely to be "safe" in posting information. They had no responsibility so there can be no blame affixed to them implied or otherwise so it is likely to be quite "safe" Be careful how you say things legal implications have already been mentioned. IMHO Littleray is a variation of this. He performed a rescue of a diver he had no prior involvement with. A traumatic experience with a sad outcome but nothing outside statistical norms.

If the person had a role in the dive that implies some responsibility IMHO it is best to consider carefully the personal impact of reading, posting directly or indirectly in the A&I thread about it.. Factors such as relationships, potential for legal liability even the identity and popularity of the victim can influence how the poster is treated. When I considered all those issues I chose to remain anonymous but provided information to a couple trusted (Mods) fairly soon after the event. I had participated in the thread about Gabe and Tina Watson and the outcomes in that Incident made me disinclined to post anything publicly until the Coroner's investigation was complete and we were sure we were "off the hook" legally. The ruling was handed down as "Accidentaly drowning" nearly 14 months later. I didn't feel that posting that in the thread at that time would have any value so have left sleeping threads lie.

I admit I didn't provide information to DAN but planned to when the ruling was made. It turned out that all of the information had been given to DAN by the Police for an "Independent expert witness opinion". It seemed to me a waste of time to contact them myself as they already had all the police interviews of myself, my husband and our other dive buddy and witnesses.

Yes A&I has a lot of value, can teach people to be safer and can cause horrific pain to those close to the event. I don't think there is any one answer to your question. I think there is value in the asking and discussion of it tho. I think before we provide information or post in A&I threads we need to check our motivation and leave our egos at the door. There is too much potential for both good in lessons learned and bad in the pain caused to those already suffering for chest thumping, judgmental and insensitive posts.

 

[Littlerayray]

IMHO in the A&I forums if you don't have anything good to say shut your mouth people are hurting you never know who will read it mistakes happen
If you feel the need to correct someone do so tastefully
Honestly how would you feel if you were mourning the loss of a close friend, family, loved one, and someone started talking about how said diver was stupid or an idiot and what not and all you were doing was looking for closure and to make sense of the situation from a community that sees more tragedy then most other sports.
In the A&I forums their should be a policy of do unto others as you would want done to you. Be tactful it's a place of mourning and comfortING and condolences as for reporting to Dan they are an insurance company that does their own investigation the only time I would call them is if they ruled negatively and give them my eyewitness account but chances are they would already have my statement since I would have spoken to the police and would have given them my statement

 

[boulderjohn]

I recently became part of a mall corps of people writing reports on diving accidents involving cave diving. In doing so, I got a new perspective on things. I had to go out and dig up the facts in the cases, and it turned out to be a lot like being a detective investigating a crime. A lot of people who know a lot don't want to talk. A lot of people who know a lot will lie. Eventually, I have to pull it all together and write a report. When you know darn well someone is lying in your face, what do you do?

The reasons for the subterfuge are fear of embarrassing someone who is at fault and, even more, fear that something will be said that could become part of a lawsuit. It is for the latter reason that the IUCRR, the group that recovers bodies in caves and used to write reports, has stop making public reports.Since the reports I write are public but have no real legal standing, I avoid saying anything remotely speculative. I omit any details that are questionable, even when I am darn sure that someone was lying to my face.

So how does that pertain to this forum? If you have specific information that you as a witness observed, by all means post it. It will help to overcome the speculation and the deliberate subterfuge. It will help stop the spinning that goes on. A few years ago there was outright lying going on in an A&I thread, and it took some clear contradictory reporting to bring out the truth.