Religion and scuba

[divad]

The Gospel was preached 1st to the Jews, with whom God had a long-standing relationship.

How's that working out?

 

[dfx]

P.S.: Someone mentioned Jesus having his disciples not go to the gentiles initially. The Gospel was preached 1st to the Jews, with whom God had a long-standing relationship.

Ah yes, the ages old idea of a "chosen people." Other people are just dogs or swine. How loving and totally not racist.

 

[drrich2]

Here's a breakdown of the religious affiliation among the prison population. It clearly shows how your proposed relation between religion and morality is deeply rooted in reality. Or something.

Adversity and a strong need to make a better change can drive people to look to religion, though not all embrace it equally.

Ah yes, the ages old idea of a "chosen people." Other people are just dogs or swine. How loving and totally not racist.

One of the things about God from a Christian perspective is that He's got ultimate authority; He can define what is good and evil, not just codify it. A number of people choose to 'judge' God and find him wanting (in their view) based on how their understanding of His statements, acts, etc…, contradicts their own moral code.

I suspect the dogs reference was from a gentile woman seeking a miracle of Jesus, who was at the time come 1st to seek the lost children of Israel. Rather than get attitudinal and belligerent at the metaphor, she remained humble, honored Him and by His grace received what she asked.

Attempts to understand God will suffer if you've got a 'Who are you to be the boss of me?' chip on your shoulder.

Richard.

---------- Post added July 14th, 2015 at 06:48 PM ----------

P.S.: Another thing. Many current atheists have values/practices strongly impacted by Christian influences on society. Should atheism become the very dominant mindset of the land for several generations, I suspect societal values/practices will change considerably.

 

[doctormike]

Dr. Mike, the quote you shared makes another point. It's an example that what from a religious perspective had been a matter or moral right & wrong, judged from an omniscient holy God, becoming from an atheistic perspective a matter of personal preference. He doesn't want to rape or murder. Much like I don't want to go deer hunting or take up tennis. But it he did want to, for some reason, & saw an opportunity to do so & get away with it, there'd be little stopping him.

A diminished Christian influence in society probably won't quickly generate legions of psychopaths, serial killers & sadists, but it may well legitimize sociopathy.

Richard.

No, he doesn't want to rape or murder because he has empathy for the people who might suffer because of that. And empathy itself is the product of the mind of an intelligent, highly evolved social animal. And an advanced, interconnected society that dedicates some resources to the common good is a huge evolutionary advantage to a species. And THAT is evidenced by our domination of the planet over every other species long before Christianity came along, or any other religion, as far as I can tell.

If you want to think that the only thing keeping society intact is a belief in the Christian God, and the belief that you need to please him, then I can't disabuse you of that notion. But I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of murderers and rapists who strongly believe in the Christian God. Or is this a "no true Scotsman" thing?

---------- Post added July 14th, 2015 at 07:56 PM ----------

Yes,

Do you?

This thread is probably bound for the PUB anyway. It is rather off the path.

I was just saying that the name of the forum is "non-diving related stuff", in response to your questioning what this had to do with diving..

 

[dfx]

One of the things about God from a Christian perspective is that He's got ultimate authority; He can define what is good and evil, not just codify it. A number of people choose to 'judge' God and find him wanting (in their view) based on how their understanding of His statements, acts, etc…, contradicts their own moral code.

I see, so when Yahweh (or Elohim or El Shaddai or whatever his name was at the time) commands Moses and the children of Israel to invade Midian simply for revenge, burn everything and kill everybody and everything, including innocent children, "except the virgins which they could keep alive for themselves" (Numbers 31:17-18), then that was a moral thing to do?

Then is it also moral to own other people as personal property, and is it moral that you can beat them as much as you want as long as they don't die from it (Exodus 21:20-21)?

 

[NAM001]

Another topic that has absolutely nothing to do with diving.
Very much like the topic of """""is scuba racist, sexist, political affiliated, _____ phobe based on its demographics?"""""
Perhaps we could take a poll to see what demographic wears split fins. or masks with purge valves, uses other than black gear, needs help getting their gear to the entry point, owners that can use more or less than 50$ of their 1000$ computers, those who use computers, the list however never ending probably does not produce any useful scuba result. It can for sure pour fuel on fires that otherwise would have never been considered a problem. Darn now I have to get a sign for the dive site to warn people that split fins are not diving at this site. Colored gear welcome here. Non computer zone ..... so get the puck out of my site.

 

[doctormike]

Another topic that has absolutely nothing to do with diving. .

Right, just like the forum title says - "Non-Diving Related Stuff"

 

[dmoore19]

Granted it is in the non diving related stuff.

I said I don't think it matters, you said it did if it affected you that religion mattered. I asked how it had an effect on you.

I understand what the OP was asking. In reference to that I don't know that your comment or mine is on topic.

I was just saying that the name of the forum is "non-diving related stuff", in response to your questioning what this had to do with diving..

 

[drrich2]

I see, so when Yahweh (or Elohim or El Shaddai or whatever his name was at the time) commands Moses and the children of Israel to invade Midian simply for revenge, burn everything and kill everybody and everything, including innocent children, "except the virgins which they could keep alive for themselves" (Numbers 31:17-18), then that was a moral thing to do?

Then is it also moral to own other people as personal property, and is it moral that you can beat them as much as you want as long as they don't die from it (Exodus 21:20-21)?

God has ultimate authority, and from a Christian perspective, obedience to His will is indeed moral. I believe there was a historical context to dealings with those the Hebrews 'invaded' that goes beyond your depiction.

As for 'owning' people, slavery, that institution existed in society, and provided a way to make a living (people could sell themselves into it, basically), to deal with prisoners of war (without killing them all), and I would imagine for dealing with criminals. As opposed to today where we lock many up in cages (prison).

No, he doesn't want to rape or murder because he has empathy for the people who might suffer because of that. And empathy itself is the product of the mind of an intelligent, highly evolved social animal.

So again, it's his preference alone that restricts him, apart from potential consequences (if any) in a given situation. And we know not all intelligent 'highly evolved social animals' act in a compassionate way; in a nutshell, they don't all go for the Golden Rule, basically.

And an advanced, interconnected society that dedicates some resources to the common good is a huge evolutionary advantage to a species.

To a point. But when that support of the common good extends to those who are no longer of active value to the society (a drain on resources without contributing much) or are a genetic danger to it (e.g.: serious mental & physical diseases with a strong hereditary component), then eventually, the rational atheist might have to wonder whether nursing homes, & welfare for the mentally retarded, schizophrenics & some other groups is a wise use of resources. That mindset paves the way for eugenics.

But I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of murderers and rapists who strongly believe in the Christian God.

I hope so. A fundamental principle of Christianity is that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. The Apostle Paul, author of a large portion of the New Testament, identified himself as a chief of sinners. This doctrine is foundational as a rationale for why God would send his sinless Son as a perfect sacrifice as an atonement for sin, an act modeled by the historical animal sacrifices of the Hebrews (who became the Jew) for many generations. The thief also on a cross whom appealed to Christ to remember him did not see his own crucifixion as unjust, and yet Christ told him that day he would be with him in Paradise.

Now, if you would make the point that some people claim affiliation with Christ, yet engage in vile acts in powerful contradiction to that, yes, that happens.

Richard.

 

[agilis]

Adversity and a strong need to make a better change can drive people to look to religion, though not all embrace it equally.



One of the things about God from a Christian perspective is that He's got ultimate authority; He can define what is good and evil, not just codify it. A number of people choose to 'judge' God and find him wanting (in their view) based on how their understanding of His statements, acts, etc…, contradicts their own moral code.

I suspect the dogs reference was from a gentile woman seeking a miracle of Jesus, who was at the time come 1st to seek the lost children of Israel. Rather than get attitudinal and belligerent at the metaphor, she remained humble, honored Him and by His grace received what she asked.

Attempts to understand God will suffer if you've got a 'Who are you to be the boss of me?' chip on your shoulder.

Richard.

---------- Post added July 14th, 2015 at 06:48 PM ----------

P.S.: Another thing. Many current atheists have values/practices strongly impacted by Christian influences on society. Should atheism become the very dominant mindset of the land for several generations, I suspect societal values/practices will change considerably.

I suspect the 'dog' and 'swine' references come from the semi- literal translations of 'goy', 'shiksa', and 'shaygitz', Yiddish for gentile, female gentile, and male gentile, respectively. 'Cattle' is in there somewhere.

The Biblical Jesus was focused entirely on the Jewish people. Even his parable of the Good Samaritan is ethnocentric, in that it used as an example a lowly Samaritan, a non-Jewish inhabitant of Roman Palestine, who displayed altruism to a beaten and robbed Jew who had been ignored by his fellow Jews.

Jesus was a moderately observant Jew. I especially like his observation that the Sabbath was made to serve people, and not the other way round. By contemporary standards this might make him a Reform Jew.

It was St Paul and others who began to spread the earliest versions of Christianity among the Gentiles, something that the Diaspora greatly facilitated.

As an historical aside, the Samaritans were eventually defined as Jews during the generations that followed the Roman expulsion of Jews from Palestine and their establishment during the Diaspora in urban centers throughout the Roman Empire. This is how Christianity got off the ground, and why it's had a Roman flavor for most of the past two thousand years.