Religion and scuba

[agilis]

This thread was doomed to tangents from the start. I see no indication Jesus was a communist; there's a difference between encouraging people to be giving vs. telling them the State owns all your stuff and will give away what it chooses without regard for your wishes.

As for religion causing evil, religion is what defines what is evil, assigns an inherent value to human life, and gives us a basis to condemn evil.

From a Godless perspective, where humans are basically a hyper-evolved troop of chimps, there is no endowment of inalienable rights by their Creator. Just as it's not 'wrong' for a hunting pack from a chimpanzee group to ambush and kill members of a rival chimp group, why would whites taking blacks for slaves to enrich themselves & advance their well-being be wrong? Or oppressing women? For one group within a species to compete against another is not called evil when it's wolves or hyaenas.

Rights, the value of human life, all these things become arbitrary systems devised by human communities, which promote health & longevity in large numbers (though perhaps compromise the species by blocking natural selection in some cases - hence the movie Idiocracy), but there is no 'higher moral truth' to them. Some people consider these truths to be grounded in a large consensus, I suspect, but pre-Civil war southern U.S. society, nazi society & a number of other examples show us a large society can devise value systems many of us now consider repugnant and wrong.

Not because they're bad for the species, or genetic fitness, but because many of us believe humans are 'special' and have a moral consciousness and grasp of some moral truth.

Then again, I suppose some probably think they're high-achieving self-deluded apes with delusions of grandeur.

Richard.

There is a major difference between a communist with a small 'c' and a primitive communist like Jesus.

There is a huge difference between communism and Marxism, and and even bigger gap between communism and Marxist-Leninist ideology, despite what those types, almost extinct now, called themselves. They also called themselves democratic, as in the Peoples Democracy of North Korea. 'Republic' was another term they adopted.

We here in the US sometimes call ourselves a democracy, and with a straight face.

Confusing Marxism-Leninism with communism is inexcusable, a remnant of cold war ideological ignorance, the kind that still fails to understand that we in this country live in a socialist society modified to permit the continued domination of capital.

Of course Jesus was a primitive communist. Fundamental basic truthful Christianity is anti-materialistic at its core. Just read the damned gospels and hear what the man said.

Confusing communism with Marxism-Leninism reminds me of those bad old days when corrupt and vicious political and police demagogues spoke nonsense about 'atheistic communism'. I guess if that kind of idiocy still works, why confuse people with reality?

 

[dmoore19]

While my experience as a diver is limited, I don't know that religion has ever crept into the realm of discussions. At least not on the dive boats I have been on. For me it makes no difference what others believe. No offense to the OP but I don't think it really matters.

It's kind of like trying to find out how many women named Roxane own a red dress.

 

[doctormike]

While my experience as a diver is limited, I don't know that religion has ever crept into the realm of discussions. At least not on the dive boats I have been on. For me it makes no difference what others believe. No offense to the OP but I don't think it really matters.

It's kind of like trying to find out how many women named Roxane own a red dress.

I think that it's interesting to talk about, actually. Certainly no obligation for anyone to click on the thread, if you don't think that it matters.

And while it doesn't make any difference to me what other people believe, it DOES matter to me when those beliefs affect me. For example, when they are used as the justification for legislation or public policy.

Finally, as far as that tired old thing about how you need God to behave in an ethical manner, Penn Jillette said it pretty well:

"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don't want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don't want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you. You know what I mean?"

 

[LowVizWiz]

I do believe he was referencing the biblical Jesus Christ while also noting that other people are free to worship whatever god they choose.

Except that the bible explicitly forbids worshipping other gods.

How do other people choosing to worship whomever they choose to worship make his beliefs invalid?

if someone believes that Jesus is god, or the son of god (or both), then that's from a book. People don't come up with that idea on their own. And they believe that part of the book, then why don't they believe all the other parts as well?

I do agree with you that people tend to pick and choose what to follow and not to follow in order to make Christianity convenient for them.

---------- Post added July 14th, 2015 at 03:41 PM ----------

I've seen very few people who come close to being a true Christian

What would you consider a true Christian?

 

[FishLovingStudent]

How do other people choosing to worship whomever they choose to worship make his beliefs invalid?

Because its like choosing string theory or foam theory, believing in one invalidates the other. Only one can exist under their terms of existence. They may not realize it but it is basically an insult, "I believe the true god but you can believe whatever/fiction you want. I am going to heaven and you are going to hell (if you don't repent)."

I'm an Atheist, but I do not really see the trend of religious vs non-religious in SCUBA. I think it would be fairly the same ratios as the general population. That being said, working at a University club/shop we see a lot of Science students and a lot of Engineering students. Not much inbetween.

What would you consider a true Christian?

I had coffee with a pastor once. Incredibly intelligent man, far more knowledgeable in STEM than me and my friends and colleagues whom are in STEM. He had one of those epiphany moments and found God. We had a calm and respectful discussion on his belief and belief in general. Did not try to convert me (well not annoyingly so at least) and is a Pastor as a volunteer. Considering his background I would have been surprised to find out he was religious. Being able to truly believe in such things when you know both sides of the argument and being a "good" person is quite impressive.

 

[dmoore19]

I guess in the context of this thread the answer is of importance.

I would find it quite odd if the subject of religion was brought up while out diving.

My question to you would be, why is it of importance while on a dive boat? How does what the religious beliefs of a person you may meet on a dive boat have any effect on you? If there is a difference what is the difference and how does it have an affect you while on a dive boat?

Just curious.

I think that it's interesting to talk about, actually. Certainly no obligation for anyone to click on the thread, if you don't think that it matters.

And while it doesn't make any difference to me what other people believe, it DOES matter to me when those beliefs affect me. For example, when they are used as the justification for legislation or public policy.

Finally, as far as that tired old thing about how you need God to behave in an ethical manner, Penn Jillette said it pretty well:

"The question I get asked by religious people all the time is, without God, what’s to stop me from raping all I want? And my answer is: I do rape all I want. And the amount I want is zero. And I do murder all I want, and the amount I want is zero. The fact that these people think that if they didn’t have this person watching over them that they would go on killing, raping rampages is the most self-damning thing I can imagine. I don't want to do that. Right now, without any god, I don't want to jump across this table and strangle you. I have no desire to strangle you. I have no desire to flip you over and rape you. You know what I mean?"

 

[LowVizWiz]

Because its like choosing string theory or foam theory, believing in one invalidates the other. Only one can exist under their terms of existence. They may not realize it but it is basically an insult, "I believe the true god but you can believe whatever/fiction you want. I am going to heaven and you are going to hell (if you don't repent)."

I agree that someone claiming to believe in God should not also claim to believe in other gods. However, that's not what was said.

Maybe I can explain my point better...
Person (a) believes God exists. Person (b) believes otherwise. What person (a) believes is not affected by what person (b) believes even if the two disagree.

"Goddamnit, Morpheus. Not everyone believes what you believe!"
"My beliefs do not require them to."―Jason Lock and Morpheus ^[src]

 

[doctormike]

I guess in the context of this thread the answer is of importance.

I would find it quite odd if the subject of religion was brought up while out diving.

My question to you would be, why is it of importance while on a dive boat? How does what the religious beliefs of a person you may meet on a dive boat have any effect on you? If there is a difference what is the difference and how does it have an affect you while on a dive boat?

Just curious.

You do know the name of this forum, right?

 

[BRT]

There is a major difference between a communist with a small 'c' and a primitive communist like Jesus.

There is a huge difference between communism and Marxism, and and even bigger gap between communism and Marxist-Leninist ideology, despite what those types, almost extinct now, called themselves. They also called themselves democratic, as in the Peoples Democracy of North Korea. 'Republic' was another term they adopted.

We here in the US sometimes call ourselves a democracy, and with a straight face.

Confusing Marxism-Leninism with communism is inexcusable, a remnant of cold war ideological ignorance, the kind that still fails to understand that we in this country live in a socialist society modified to permit the continued domination of capital.

Of course Jesus was a primitive communist. Fundamental basic truthful Christianity is anti-materialistic at its core. Just read the damned gospels and hear what the man said.

Confusing communism with Marxism-Leninism reminds me of those bad old days when corrupt and vicious political and police demagogues spoke nonsense about 'atheistic communism'. I guess if that kind of idiocy still works, why confuse people with reality?

I disagree. Jesus was not promoting communism, democracy, a republic, liberalism, conservatism or any of the things that have been mentioned. He was promoting his fathers kingdom, governed by his father a wise king. Those that follow Jesus' teachings will not be doing any of the things that give Christianity a bad name. Those that do those things are not in his kingdom, regardless of what they claim.

 

[Freewillow]

There is a huge difference between communism and Marxism, and and even bigger gap between communism and Marxist-Leninist ideology, despite what those types, almost extinct now, called themselves.


Confusing Marxism-Leninism with communism is inexcusable,
C

Interesting comment that I do not understand. Marxism Leninism was - and still is - the most important form of communism. So to say that to confuse them is inexcusable is rather intriguing. I suggest that you contact wikipedia in order to tell tham that they have no excuse. here is an extract of what they say.

"
In political and social sciences, communism (from Latin communis – common, universal)^[1][2] is a social, political, and economic ideology and movement whose ultimate goal is the establishment of the communist society, which is a socioeconomic order structured upon the common ownership of the means of production, absence of social classes, money,^[3][4] and the state.
Communism includes a variety of schools of thought, which broadly include Marxism, anarchism (anarchist communism) and the political ideologies grouped around both."