Why the dislike of air integrated computers?

[boulderjohn]

They want to know why boats in the Keys are a bit aggressive when it comes to safety. Lots of deaths is why. No, they really aren't diving induced deaths, but it keeps them on their toes. No one wants to needlessly add to the numbers. I can't blame them.

So let me make sure I understsand this.

Let's say that I am diving in the Keys and in the dive briefing I am told to be back on the boat by 50 minutes. I dutifully return to the boat in plenty of time, happy as a clam after a nice dive. While I am taking care of my gear, the crew is going to look at my computer to make sure I didn't do something they think is dangerous during that dive. If so, they will cancel my diving privileges for the next dive. Is that what you are saying?

 

[KevinNM]

I've only dove the Spree, and they do in fact look at your computer and gauge as you get out of the water, to see if you are inside the limits of the dive and if you still have air in your tank. If not, then you get to talk about how and why this happened. It's part of the terms of the trip.

Depth limits:

Table divers:
the depth limits are 130 fsw/39 msw for the first dive of the day
only, with a maximum allowable depth of 100 fsw/30 msw for each subsequent dive.

Computer divers:
The depth limits are 130 fsw/39 msw per dive.

Rebreather divers:
The depth limits are 140 fsw/42 msw per dive.

Any diver violating a depth limit will be required to sit out the next dive. Then the diver’s return to
diving is at the sole discretion of the Captain.


Out of air:

We feel that running out of air is a life threatening situation and a failure completely within the control of the diver. Barring equipment failure, any diver in an out of air situation in their primary cylinder will only be allowed to return to diving at the sole discretion of the Captain. Out of air is defined as the diver not being able to take an effective breath on their regulator while standing on the dive platform at the end of their dive.

 

[redacted]

They want to know why boats in the Keys are a bit aggressive when it comes to safety. Lots of deaths is why. No, they really aren't diving induced deaths, but it keeps them on their toes. No one wants to needlessly add to the numbers. I can't blame them.

What, exactly, would those aggressive procedures? Frankly, my inexperienced impression is that most of those procedures are designed to simply get the op back to the dock earlier.

 

[Nemrod]

So let me make sure I understsand this.

Let's say that I am diving in the Keys and in the dive briefing I am told to be back on the boat by 50 minutes. I dutifully return to the boat in plenty of time, happy as a clam after a nice dive. While I am taking care of my gear, the crew is going to look at my computer to make sure I didn't do something they think is dangerous during that dive. If so, they will cancel my diving privileges for the next dive. Is that what you are saying?

Not all Keys ops do this but quite a few do exactly that. On the other hand, several have been laid back enough to allow me to just do my thing after realizing I can actually dive. But others, no way, they are horrible and take all the fun out of diving including forced guided dives wherein the DM grabs the spg and computer DURING the dive and checks it.

I am back on the boat with 2000 psi in my tank! Talk about being aggressive. But, on another dive (and OP) my German insta buddy who was a quite nice chap and I enjoyed diving with him, employed a rather bizarre method of underwater (non) navigation which resulted in us not being where he thought we were and me knowing exactly that we were not where he thought we were. But, I still had 1500 psi after an hour on the Benwood so I let him do all the work, going up and down to spy out the boat whilst I continued taking photos below and being as he was empty he needed to be up top anyways. Fifteen minutes late back the captain gave me the look and I waved my hand stating that apparently we became directionally challenged and he just laughed as he hauled me up. I apologized for being late and he said no worries as long as we were at least on the right boat, lol.

So, they are not all jackarses but if the Keys is not the capital of nanny diving, I am not sure where is. Remarkable the difference between diving in Jupiter to WPB and then get down to Key largo only to herded like a sheep, which, by the way, I have difficulty with and usually revolt, later if not sooner, usually sooner.

Oh, and by the way, I will die on the bottom OOA before I go to the surface and stick my head up to find my boat, good thing I had that pleasant German fellow along for a buddy .

I am sorry, I know I am lost and off topic on this thread but 30 plus pages of spg vs spg and AI is causing me to revolt.

N

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Just something to keep in mind - the fact that the deaths were related to coronary issues (or more likely, cardiac issues in general) does not mean that you can assume that diver practices are not a factor. Yes, a diver with a pre-existing heart condition is at increased risk.

But the only way to prove that these deaths while diving have nothing to do with diving profiles, practices, etc.. would be to compare a group of divers to an age matched group of the same number of people walking around a shopping mall and find identical rates of sudden cardiac death.

It is not 100% clear how decompression stress (which occurs on every dive, and is worsened by increased inert gas loading with inadequate deco stops) causes injury. But one apparent factor is that bubbles can act to trigger an inflammatory response. There are also non-bubble factors that can cause vascular injury.

I don't think that anyone knows this answer for sure. But I would caution against just writing off a diving fatality as the inevitable consequence of an underlying health issue, and excusing poor diving practice as a contributing factor.

I think it can be related to both health and diving competency.
A well seasoned diver that has things mentally and physically under control will be under less stress than a newer undertrained diver even if both have underlying health issues. The incompetent unhealthy diver may experience enough stress to have a coronary event.
We see this quite frequently with out of shape and out of practice ab divers. We lose an average of 8 per year.

---------- Post added July 10th, 2015 at 10:38 PM ----------

Not all Keys ops do this but quite a few do exactly that. On the other hand, several have been laid back enough to allow me to just do my thing after realizing I can actually dive. But others, no way, they are horrible and take all the fun out of diving including forced guided dives wherein the DM grabs the spg and computer DURING the dive and checks it.

I am back on the boat with 2000 psi in my tank! Talk about being aggressive. But, on another dive (and OP) my German insta buddy who was a quite nice chap and I enjoyed diving with him, employed a rather bizarre method of underwater (non) navigation which resulted in us not being where he thought we were and me knowing exactly that we were not where he thought we were. But, I still had 1500 psi after an hour on the Benwood so I let him do all the work, going up and down to spy out the boat whilst I continued taking photos below and being as he was empty he needed to be up top anyways. Fifteen minutes late back the captain gave me the look and I waved my hand stating that apparently we became directionally challenged and he just laughed as he hauled me up. I apologized for being late and he said no worries as long as we were at least on the right boat, lol.

So, they are not all jackarses but if the Keys is not the capital of nanny diving, I am not sure where is. Remarkable the difference between diving in Jupiter to WPB and then get down to Key largo only to herded like a sheep, which, by the way, I have difficulty with and usually revolt, later if not sooner, usually sooner.

Oh, and by the way, I will die on the bottom OOA before I go to the surface and stick my head up to find my boat, good thing I had that pleasant German fellow along for a buddy .

I am sorry, I know I am lost and off topic on this thread but 30 plus pages of spg vs spg and AI is causing me to revolt.

N

Well you cured me from ever wanting to go to Floriduh to dive. If you have trouble handling the ops I would probably be suicidal after flying 3000 miles to get babysat.
Darn, I was looking forward to that someday too.
See what those damn computers have done!
I guess that could make for a case against computers - so the ops can't see what you've
been doing. But then of course if it gets to where they won't let you dive without a computer anymore it kind of makes it a moot point. Do they let you dive tables anymore in the Keys? I don't know, I've never been there.
What next in computer technology for diving? Maybe a little nanny cam they attach to all the divers like mommy points at here little baby in the crib? Maybe they could have a video monitor of the diver and all the computer info in real time up on the boat in little kernel Klink's office, then when some diver goes one foot over the limit to look at something cool they would get an alarm in the security office and the officer could hit a button and give the out of line diver a little shock like a dog going too far out from the property line.
I guess all this nanny stuff is the other side and the dark underbelly of wanting to "grow diving" and making it easy so "everybody" (any idiot) can be a diver in a weekend and help stuff the coffers of dive ops.

 

[The Chairman]

So let me make sure I understsand this.

Let's say that I am diving in the Keys and in the dive briefing I am told to be back on the boat by 50 minutes. I dutifully return to the boat in plenty of time, happy as a clam after a nice dive. While I am taking care of my gear, the crew is going to look at my computer to make sure I didn't do something they think is dangerous during that dive. If so, they will cancel my diving privileges for the next dive. Is that what you are saying?

Nothing will be said or done.

Not all Keys ops do this but quite a few do exactly that.

Like who?

Most dive ops here in the Keys give you an hour, unless of course you're on one of the deeper reefs. If everyone is up in 30/35 minutes, like my dive on the Bibb this past week, then there is no hassle. But if you're up significantly later than that, then sure: you're going to be asked about it. We were the first down on the Bibb and almost the last ones up and still had no problems. Make the crew and all the other divers wait while you incur and then do a deco stop and you'll find a much different approach. There was a bit of concern about the last group, but it turned out they were the last ones in. No capricious deco, so no problem!

Splash with the appropriate equipment for deco diving, and you'll find most dive ops pretty amenable to that, especially if it's a double dip. Just let them know in advance of your intentions and it's no big deal. Go into deco without a plan or the gas and they worry about the liability you're exposing them to. Who wouldn't in this sue happy country?

I live here in the Keys, and I've never had any dive op check my PDC. Not even on the Spree. If they're checking your PDC, you've given them some cause to do so. In that regard, you probably would be checked by any boat, any where.

 

[Nemrod]

Nothing will be said or done.

Like who?

Like I told a fellow in another thread, if you sincerely want to know in order to avoid a potentially bad experience and not just argue with me then please feel free to shoot me a PM. I do not bash people or businesses on an open forum or at least try not to. I stand by what I said, that you have become friends or acquaintances of some of the operators does therefore not make you an average or typical diver visiting so the behaviors you experience are likely different and of course you would expect so.

I get around from coast to coast and quite a few places between. The Keys, despite your good beliefs are widely known for excessive nannying. Just a little further north and it is Dive, Dive, Dive. In California it is pretty much, we take you out and we bring you back, what you do in between is up to you. The law suit thing wears thin with me. I come to dive, as long as I have reserves and green on my computer I am not going to be happy about being herded out of the water with 1500 to 2000 psi in my tank and battery left on my camera. That some folks Hoover through their reserves is their issue, they can just work on their tans or enjoy being out on the ocean and not in the office.

N

 

[The Chairman]

that you have become friends or acquaintances of some of the operators does therefore not make you an average or typical diver visiting so the behaviors you experience are likely different and of course you would expect so.

It's not just 'me', I'm talking about. I'm a local here as well as enjoy a bit of notoriety so I'm often get treated a bit differently. But, I've got eyes and ears and engage divers from around the world here in my backyard. I haven't heard or seen a single op doing what you're suggesting, unless of course, there were mitigating circumstances. Rather than 'dive, dive, dive' it's more like 'pool's open!" I also get around the state of Florida and every time someone asks to see someone's PDC, there has been a mitigating circumstance. In fact, this happened to me in Boyton when I had a twenty five minute safety stop. No deco was involved, just the ballet of three sailfish feeding. The captain, a friend of mine, still couldn't believe that and insisted on seeing my PDC. Not a problem here as I was clean on that count.

The Keys, despite your good beliefs are widely known for excessive nannying.

Yeah, I think it's just the opposite and so I call shenanigans. I've never heard such an opinion before this thread, so it's anything but 'widely known'. 99.9% of the divers don't share your opinion and show their love for the Keys by showing up and diving. It's more that the Keys are 'widely known' for their awesome and varied diving. The Keys are also 'known' for being crowded on holidays and for not having much of a surface interval if the second dive is shallow. We've got some of the easiest diving in the world as well as fairly challenging ones not that much further out. It's why I live here.

 

[Chuckitall]

Yesterday I crashed my third Sherwood Wisdom 2 AI. I really like AI computers, but thru the years my wife and I have had our share of durability problems with these roughly $700/800 computers. Have had 2 go out on plus 100 ft dives, that will spook you. I now always carry an SPG and wrist computer so as to not ruin my dive day. Last time I sent the Wisdom 2 back, was told none were left for replacement, so don’t know what I’ll hear this time. If there is one out there that has the rugged durability for a + 300 dives a year diver let me know.

 

[RJP]

If there is one out there that has the rugged durability for a + 300 dives a year diver let me know.

Can't tell you about 300/yr, but my Vytec DS has held up for ~1,000 dives over the past nine years. Never had to do anything to it but change the battery every once in a while.