Negative entry vs Using a downline

[LiteHedded]

Just like your scooter pulls your
harness, along with you in it. The thrust is still delivered to
you.

Attach it low, to a well-fitted BCD, just like you do. It shouldn't
ride up on you.



So it's what...4 or 5 mph? :shocked2:

There is an upper limit to the speed of this craft.



So what if you go on a trip/dive and there are no DIR divers, you sit it out? You seem like you're unnecessarily limiting yourself, and what DaleC said was right; DIR divers isolate themselves from the general population...and from most of the greatest stuff that diving has to offer.

ignoring what you're saying about scooters (because you have no clue what you're talking about)...

my answer to your question to AJ (i imagine his will be the same) is that it depends on the dive and the diver. sometimes I would sit it out. other times i would dive

 

[PfcAJ]

You really don't know what you're talking about with scooters. Your lack of experience is showing.


I bring my own gear when I travel and I either bring a dive buddy with me who gets the whole long hose/ backplate thing or meet up with the local DIR crew. On exceedingly rare occasion I'll rent the local gear and make due, but those dives are literally always superduper shallow and easy. Step up from snorkeling. In all my diving and travels, I've never left a stop wishing I had done some dive I didn't do, and I always travel to these places with diving friends.

 

[boulderjohn]

Just like your scooter pulls your
harness, along with you in it. The thrust is still delivered to
you.

Attach it low, to a well-fitted BCD, just like you do. It shouldn't
ride up on you.

No, it is not the same at all. The scooter does not pull on our harness at all. It pulls on the crotch strap, which is separate. The crotch strap pulls on our crotches, pulling us along with out any effect n the backplate harness. Here is a video of it. Can you show a picture of what you are talking about?

Submerge Scooters - YouTube

 

[T.C.]

No, it is not the same at all. The scooter does not pull on our harness at all. It pulls on the crotch strap, which is separate. The crotch strap pulls on our crotches, pulling us along with out any effect n the backplate harness.

So where is the crotch strap anchored? The BP and harness. That's what's keeping it all together, and where the thrust is going. It's just spread out enough that you don't feel it.

Here is a video of it. Can you show a picture of what you are talking about?

Hook your lines around the waist strap. Same effect with a well-fitted BCD.

That's it? :yawn: I've been in worse currents than that speed. Maybe 4 mph?

ignoring what you're saying about scooters (because you have no clue what you're talking about)....

I have a low tolerance for "My gear is sooooo awesome, you can't handle it" talk. It's 99% BS bragging.

Yes, it's faster than a normal scooter. No, it's not super-dolphin fast. You go too fast, and you're risking your mask coming off, your reg getting purged, or the ride becoming uncomfortable. 4 or 5 mph. For comparison, Michael Phelps swims about 3 mph.

I notice no one wants to post the speed for it...

my answer to your question to AJ (i imagine his will be the same) is that it depends on the dive and the diver. sometimes I would sit it out. other times i would dive

So you'd rather sit out a dive then lower yourself to dive with a common rec. diver, or risk meeting a new friend. Talk about willingly and unnecessarily isolationing yourself

And we wonder how DIR got it's reputation....

 

[PfcAJ]

sigh.

You just don't get it. I'd rather sit out a dive then end up in some situation with an insta-buddy who's skill, knowledge, and ability is unknown. Yes. Yes I would.

Some 30ft dive? Sure, ok, lets go. An 80ft wall dive? No thx m8. That's not something I want to experiment with. YOU can do whatever you want, however. I plan appropriately when I go on trips.

Welcome to the world of choice.

Speed of scooters is around 200fpm. Some of the one's John has go faster.

I notice you've never used one.

 

[LiteHedded]

I have a low tolerance for "My gear is sooooo awesome, you can't handle it" talk. It's 99% BS bragging.

Yes, it's faster than a normal scooter. No, it's not super-dolphin fast. You go too fast, and you're risking your mask coming off, your reg getting purged, or the ride becoming uncomfortable. 4 or 5 mph. For comparison, Michael Phelps swims about 3 mph.

I notice no one wants to post the speed for it...


So you'd rather sit out a dive then lower yourself to dive with a common rec. diver, or risk meeting a new friend. Talk about willingly and unnecessarily isolationing yourself

And we wonder how DIR got it's reputation....

if the dive was a technical dive and i had doubts about the buddy or the situation i would sit it out. absolutely. i don't view it as unnecessary as you do. don't cherry pick things from what i said and twist it around. i said it depends.
if it was a benign reef dive i would do it unless the person was some sort of slobbering, crayon eating, glue sniffer.
i do it plenty and have had great dives with non-dir buddies

 

[Greenjuice]

I ... rarely dive WITH a wetsuit -- it has to be pretty warm water and a short, single dive for me to dive wet.

when I dive Maui with a single Al80 and a wetsuit, I have all my weight on my cambands and it's not ditchable.

A diver who rescued me could bring me to the surface, and once there, make me buoyant with my BC.
I don't see this as being a big issue.

And it certainly shouldn't be a big issue, especially when reminded that the DIR essence is the Team and Standardisation. A good team member will do all of the above rescue, maybe even blindfolded if needed, because of the familiarity with your kit, such is the strength of redundancy in DIR.

Less straightforward if unfortunate enough to be buddied with someone less skilled - for both parties:

I once witnessed an experienced cold water diver buddied to a young rec diver who was PADI trained whilst on a backpacking vacation. It was tropical but he was using his drysuit because he was comfortable in it and didn't want to rent gear. He also had an Aqualung i3 integrated BCD inflator/deflator.

You can image her eyes popping out as he explained his gear to her during BWRAF! She had no concept of drysuit buoyancy control let alone the use of his BCD! If a rescue ascent was needed, I doubt if it would have been controlled.

Understand the “foundation” of DIR is:

1. Team
2. Standardization

DIR is about less gear, less gear task loading.

There is no question that a fully kitted DIR team would be able to execute a tropical rec muck dive perfectly safely; with drysuits, longhoses and twinsets if they wish. Scooters and freedive fins might raise some eyebrows - hunting those hidden critters means going really close and really, really slow!

But if DIR is *also* about less gear and less gear task loading, then in that same environment the DIR team will find others with far less gear and far less gear task loading and also diving safely too.

This is what I mean by saying that DIR principles starting to fall apart when transplanting the ideas to the rec environment because the high level of safety and redundancy this system provides for cave diving, becomes excessively complex and burdensome in the rec environment where regularly 5, and occasionally up to 7 dives a day are organised.

How can the DIR team not give up the Team, the Standardisation or Minimal Gear whilst still claiming to be best optimised or prepared for that kind of diving? To give away any of the above, surely means moving away from DIR. Keeping them, surely means a level of unnecessary task loading which is also not DIR.

For thread compliance, I think there are parallels with the options for descent. If the concept of a 'best' method for a particular situation exists, then as situations change so should the methods.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[PfcAJ]

And it certainly shouldn't be a big issue, especially when reminded that the DIR essence is the Team and Standardisation. A good team member will do all of the above rescue, maybe even blindfolded if needed, because of the familiarity with your kit, such is the strength of redundancy in DIR.

Less straightforward if unfortunate enough to be buddied with someone less skilled - for both parties:

I once witnessed an experienced cold water diver buddied to a young rec diver who was PADI trained whilst on a backpacking vacation. It was tropical but he was using his drysuit because he was comfortable in it and didn't want to rent gear. He also had an Aqualung i3 integrated BCD inflator/deflator.

You can image her eyes popping out as he explained his gear to her during BWRAF! She had no concept of drysuit buoyancy control let alone the use of his BCD! If a rescue ascent was needed, I doubt if it would have been controlled.




There is no question that a fully kitted DIR team would be able to execute a tropical rec muck dive perfectly safely; with drysuits, longhoses and twinsets if they wish. Scooters and freedive fins might raise some eyebrows - hunting those hidden critters means going really close and really, really slow!

But if DIR is *also* about less gear and less gear task loading, then in that same environment the DIR team will find others with far less gear and far less gear task loading and also diving safely too.

This is what I mean by saying that DIR principles starting to fall apart when transplanting the ideas to the rec environment because the high level of safety and redundancy this system provides for cave diving, becomes excessively complex and burdensome in the rec environment where regularly 5, and occasionally up to 7 dives a day are organised.

How can the DIR team not give up the Team, the Standardisation or Minimal Gear whilst still claiming to be best optimised or prepared for that kind of diving? To give away any of the above, surely means moving away from DIR. Keeping them, surely means a level of unnecessary task loading which is also not DIR.

For thread compliance, I think there are parallels with the options for descent. If the concept of a 'best' method for a particular situation exists, then as situations change so should the methods.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You don't HAVE to use doubles and a drysuit to be DIR, you know... I'll show up for a shore dive in Cayman with nothing but fins, reg, tank, mask and BC. Hard to get too much less gear than that. Sometimes I toss the idea around of leaving my swim suit behind, but I hear that's frowned upon.

 

[T.C.]

i don't view it as unnecessary as you do. don't cherry pick things from what i said and twist it around.

I'm not talking about a tech dive. I'm talking about a normal rec. dive.

You'd sit an 80 foot rec dive because you're worried that insta-buddy couldn't handle a potential problem? Wow...you really have a low opinion of non-DIR divers...

I'll buddy up with them, and enjoy a nice dive, and possibly, a new friendship.

Speed of scooters is around 200fpm. Some of the one's John has go faster.

Yeah. I was completely wrong on speeds. Some go to 300 ft/min.
With a single tank diver.
At maximum.

Know how fast that is? A whopping 3.4 mph. That is *not* fast at all.

I notice you've never used one.

So? This isn't rocket science. Or even that challenging...

---------- Post added April 10th, 2014 at 04:34 PM ----------

Sometimes I toss the idea around of leaving my swim suit behind, but I hear that's frowned upon.

Yes. Yes it is.

 

[PfcAJ]

Yup. Real pokey. Ok.

Experience. You need some.