Negative entry vs Using a downline

[PfcAJ]

Saying "irrelevant" and "that's a fact" does not make something irrelevant or a fact. Sorry man. Come back and argue the use of scooters when your number of scooter dives becomes greater than 0.

---------- Post added April 10th, 2014 at 07:36 PM ----------

Depends who's looking and how cold the water is!

But if you team up with another DIR diver who likes his longhose, backup mask and reel because it minimises *his* task loading; don't you HAVE to match it for the sake of Standardisation?

I fully *get* the advantages of Team diving in tech scenarios. I also fully *get* the advantages of Standardisation once in a Team; as in a Team your gear is no longer yours, it's part of the Team.

What I don't understand is why such a high level of redundancy, maintained by self imposed and strict rules, doesn't appear to be illogical or even counterproductive in the simpler rec environment; to those who live by a system that was presumably developed on the principles of good sense, logic and high regard for safety.


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Why would 1 team need 2 reels?

 

[T.C.]

I didn't see where AJ said you weren't an experienced diver bc you aren't DIR and don't dive a scooter - but maybe I missed it.

Here, let me help you out:

Yup. Real pokey. Ok.

Experience. You need some.

So what do you think the basis for saying I need experience is? It's because I don't dive the same places/ways he does. Suddenly, not being DIR means I need to get "experience".

I have zero interest in his "experience". Looking at a bunch of rocks in a cave is boring, and the added chance to die while doing it just adds stupid to the equation in my opinion. But none of not wanting to adopt his dive religion translates over to needing experience.

HOWEVER - I wouldn't presume to talk about how scooters work unless I had dove one in the configuration being discussed. It is totally NOT irrelevant. You can't speak about how something works if you haven't used it. Now you just sound argumentative.

Saying "irrelevant" and "that's a fact" does not make
something irrelevant or a fact.

Yes, it is irrelevant. Do you think 3.4 mph when the diver is stripped down is fast?
Do you think piloting a scooter is particularly challenging?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not. Just because you do something in DIR, doesn't make it difficult.

As I said, this is just more of a "my gear is super awesome and you can't handle it" attitude. I see it all the time in the military. 95% of the time it's as false as your attitude on this topic is.

 

[DaleC]

I'm lovin this crazy thread but we need a few more tangents.

Dale, I think I am in general agreement with your views of the world. I say this to characterize my personal biases, for the benefit of others, not to curry favor. But, I do have a couple of questions / comments.What, from YOUR perspective, is 'not understandable by most rec divers.' Not disagreeing, just trying to better understand.

Hi Colliam, You are always so positive in your typing Sometimes it feels like all of us are arguing but I understand the difference between arguing ideas and arguing personalities. There are many posters on this thread that I like, even if we do joust a bit from time to time. When it's good it's a great way to share our collective experience/perspective with each other even if we won't adopt everything being said.

To me, the greatest gear difference is longhose/primary donate. Now, for those of us that use them, it may seem a simple concept but it really violates a basis premise from other mainstream training. So much so that BSAC basically outlawed them for sanctioned diving (don't know if that still applies). Yes, I think that was/is an overreaction but it shows the level of misunderstanding that the system represents. I see a few divers who like a long hose but rig it completely differently from a hog rig (stuffed/bungee'd).

Behaviorally, mentally calculating NDL's/deco would also throw a few divers for a loop. For better or worse, most rec divers these days are trained to use a PDC which, actually, is pretty safe and reliable for what it does. Again, I often use the 120 rule and can do many of my dives without a computer but if you were doing a predive briefing and told your instabuddy you would be mentally calculating NDL's they may/may not be comfortable following that.

An interesting, and valid point. Obviously, a counter argument would be that the diver should actually get their sh-t together BEFORE the entry. But, your point makes good sense. Ultimately, we do want to protect some divers from their own mistakes. It is in our collective best interests.

I think we are sayng the same thing. By kitting up I mean missing something predive like splashing without a LP hose being attached or tank turned off etc... Doing a positive entry and gradual descent using a line gives the diver a chance to notice and recover that doing a neg entry may not. Of course, a good predive check would also fix that.

I once rolled off a gunwale and could not keep air in my BC. Somehow the inflator elbow union (to the wing) popped off the threads (something I always check now). An easy fix on the surface but potentially a big issue if one were negative and dropping down a wall or in blue water.

 

[PfcAJ]

TC, how do you know if it's difficult or not since you've never done it?

 

[Greenjuice]

Why would 1 team need 2 reels?

I don't know. I've not been DIR trained, so I don't how rigorously the principle of 'Standardisation' is applied. I've just learnt from TSandM that Standardisation doesn't apply to exposure suits. To me that is quite interesting because I would have imagined that does make a difference in a tech situation.

As a non-DIR heathen I am embarrassed to admit that in nearly all my rec diving experience I have not dived with a reel. I can count the numbers of times on the fingers of one hand. That is because I do subscribe to the minimalist approach - if I don't need it, I don't take it.



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[T.C.]

TC, how do you know if it's difficult or not since you've never done it?

I've used a DPV on a few dives.

This is not rocket science. Just because your toy is expensive and cool, doesn't make it difficult or super fast.

Nor does not using one make one "need experience". That equates to me stating that you aren't experienced because you don't dive with Insta-Buddy. It's an asinine and silly argument, which only showcases the attitude of DIR divers. Again.

 

[PfcAJ]

Same for us. If we don't need it, we don't take it.

All these misconceptions.

---------- Post added April 10th, 2014 at 07:52 PM ----------

I've used a DPV on a few dives.

This is not rocket science. Just because your toy is expensive and cool, doesn't make it difficult or super fast.

Nor does not using one make one "need experience". That equates to me stating that you aren't experienced because you don't dive with Insta-Buddy. It's an asinine and silly argument, which only showcases the attitude of DIR divers. Again.

What kind?

---------- Post added April 10th, 2014 at 07:53 PM ----------

 

[T.C.]

What kind?

I don't know; it was borrowed. The skills involved were not difficult to fly it. Within a few minutes, I could fly it a few feet off the bottom, steer around rocks, logs, and control bouyancy as I changed depth, all without losing control.

I know, you think it's super-hard, and your toy make it impossible for non-DIR divers to do it. It's simply not true. Just because rec. divers don't use them doesn't mean that they couldn't. Just because you paid alot of money for your toy doesn't make you Super Diver.

And just because someone doesn't use your gear on every dive doesn't make them lacking in experience. Your definition of 'experienced' is flawed by your superiority attitude.

 

[rivers]

I'm lovin this crazy thread but we need a few more tangents.



Hi Colliam, You are always so positive in your typing Sometimes it feels like all of us are arguing but I understand the difference between arguing ideas and arguing personalities. There are many posters on this thread that I like, even if we do joust a bit from time to time. When it's good it's a great way to share our collective experience/perspective with each other even if we won't adopt everything being said.

To me, the greatest gear difference is longhose/primary donate. Now, for those of us that use them, it may seem a simple concept but it really violates a basis premise from other mainstream training. So much so that BSAC basically outlawed them for sanctioned diving (don't know if that still applies). Yes, I think that was/is an overreaction but it shows the level of misunderstanding that the system represents. I see a few divers who like a long hose but rig it completely differently from a hog rig (stuffed/bungee'd).

Behaviorally, mentally calculating NDL's/deco would also throw a few divers for a loop. For better or worse, most rec divers these days are trained to use a PDC which, actually, is pretty safe and reliable for what it does. Again, I often use the 120 rule and can do many of my dives without a computer but if you were doing a predive briefing and told your instabuddy you would be mentally calculating NDL's they may/may not be comfortable following that.



I think we are sayng the same thing. By kitting up I mean missing something predive like splashing without a LP hose being attached or tank turned off etc... Doing a positive entry and gradual descent using a line gives the diver a chance to notice and recover that doing a neg entry may not. Of course, a good predive check would also fix that.

I once rolled off a gunwale and could not keep air in my BC. Somehow the inflator elbow union (to the wing) popped off the threads (something I always check now). An easy fix on the surface but potentially a big issue if one were negative and dropping down a wall or in blue water.

BSAC haven't banned hog looping. They have just banned teaching hog loop/primary donate in general. Half of my BSAC club hog loops when they're on twins. I hog loop all the time (twins or single). I have yet to confuse anyone with my rig, even trainees on their first open water dives.

 

[lv2dive]

UM - so AJ said to get some experience - DIVING A DPV - bc you implied you had not dove a DPVand you were making comments about diving a DPV that people weren't understanding - and you translated that to "you were inexperienced bc you weren't diving DIR or a DPV"? RLY? That is quite an olympic-sized long jump!

BTW - I don't have a bubble to burst... I am just trying to figure out what your point is and what kinda chops ya got to back it up. Generally speaking, if SOMEONE hasn't been there, done that, I don't value their opinion on a topic much. In this case, currents or whatever notwithstanding.

And I will go on the record as saying it is my personal opinion that there are occasions for hot drops and occasions for down lines. There, back on topic!

Here, let me help you out:

So what do you think the basis for saying I need experience is? It's because I don't dive the same places/ways he does. Suddenly, not being DIR means I need to get "experience".

I have zero interest in his "experience". Looking at a bunch of rocks in a cave is boring, and the added chance to die while doing it just adds stupid to the equation in my opinion. But none of not wanting to adopt his dive religion translates over to needing experience.



Yes, it is irrelevant. Do you think 3.4 mph when the diver is stripped down is fast?
Do you think piloting a scooter is particularly challenging?

Sorry to burst your bubble, but it's not. Just because you do something in DIR, doesn't make it difficult.

As I said, this is just more of a "my gear is super awesome and you can't handle it" attitude. I see it all the time in the military. 95% of the time it's as false as your attitude on this topic is.