OW class question

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This discussion is as hilarious as telling, that since electronic calculators are all around, there is no need to learn how to calculate mentally.:shakehead:

Nobody is saying that. You seem to be suggesting that if you know tables that you are somehow able to calculate *some* major dive parameter in your head better than if you were using a computer and using all the same knowledge....

Strangely... if my car's computer is telling me that it uses 8L/100KM and I know that it has a 50L gas tank I'm still able to work about about how far I can go.....

I know there are a lot of people who believe that the old ways of doing things are better by definition but... frankly, you have to come up with better arguments than this.

R..
 
T.C., nobody on here is advising the OP NOT to learn to use tables. My only point in chiming in was to emphasize that while it's great to learn tables, it is not NECESSARY. To me, "necessary" does not mean necessary to avoid having to sit out 12 hours or whatever. To me, necessary means necessary in order to enjoy the kind of relaxed vacation diving that many many of us out there do.

It's because of cost and size as well; not solely because of technology. But, here we go with the "everyone should buy more gear" idea. Some divers can't afford two computers. In this case, being taught tables forms an acceptable backup.

Again, my point was only that it's not necessary. The OP may very well agree with you that minimizing bulk and cost are priorities in the type of diving he wishes to practice. Judging from SB posts, some newly minted divers can't wait to spend their dollars. I actually recommend renting gear for a while to see what one likes best, but that's another story.

Ah. Now we have the "What I like and do is best for everyone" argument. Some people DO go on their vacation to dive. They want to do as much as possible. If they can't, it bothers them. Why should they lose out because they weren't trained on a simple backup technique?

This was in reply to me, so I can only assume you misinterpreted what I posted. In no way was my post intended to advise the OP to NOT learn tables.

Sure it is. If the DM is trying to control your profile, let them know they're number 1. You do have a middle finger, right?

I have to believe you know the issues here. On resort and liveaboard dives, you ask the DM how deep and long the next three dives today will be, and he's not even sure yet of what site we're going to visit FIRST. And just what WAS the depth of that last dive? It was likely VERY multi-level, complicating the use of tables. While few of us advocate blindly following the DM, who in their right mind is going to go out of their way to piss off the DM whom we are spending a week with? To the extent the diver deems it safe, we tend to go with the flow, not against it. The DM knows where the good stuff is to see, and a guided dive is part of what we paid for. Bottom line: for vacation-type divers, tables are impractical to rely on, and a mediocre choice as a backup for a failed computer when one considers that a backup computer that should last for years can be purchased for a fraction of the cost of just one vacation.

Again, many divers can't afford two computers. Some can't even justify getting their own gear with the amount they dive. ScubaBoard is not really a good cross-section of the dive community. For those of us obsessed enough to bother electrons to carry our thoughts to other divers, we already own most of our own gear. Some of us own far too much gear.

No disagreement here! But for those divers who can't afford an extra $250 computer, I suggest being careful about booking a $3,000 week-long liveaboard or trip to Cozumel. Again, this doesn't apply to everyone. I have no idea what kind of diving the OP intends to do, and I suspect as a new diver he doesn't either.

But there are many divers out there who only dive once or twice a year when they go somewhere. Spending $50 dollars for an extra computer is hard for them to justify. They shouldn't have two, when they can use tables for an effective backup.

I would think that divers who dive only once or twice a year are the ones who would not be overly concerned about spending money on their vacation. If one dives only once or twice a year on vacation, they should consider renting a backup computer. Just about every dive outfit will rent a computer. Fifty bucks is the cost of a dinner out. Again, it's cheap insurance compared with the cost of the trip itself.
 
Nobody is saying that. You seem to be suggesting that if you know tables that you are somehow able to calculate *some* major dive parameter in your head better than if you were using a computer and using all the same knowledge....

Strangely... if my car's computer is telling me that it uses 8L/100KM and I know that it has a 50L gas tank I'm still able to work about about how far I can go.....

I know there are a lot of people who believe that the old ways of doing things are better by definition but... frankly, you have to come up with better arguments than this.

R..


You got me wrong Diver0001. I never said that we should not use dive computers. I own one since more than 20 years ago. My mentioning about mental calculation was NOT to say that one should be able to calculate mentally from tables. :no:

It was my reaction to several posts, saying: we have computers now. Why should be bother about tables, even trying to understand what their purpose was. :eyebrow:

I do believe that tables are to be used as a way to understand the whole concept of nitrogen management. Just as a way to understand how their computer work. Not to speak about my personal experience, when I am diving with a EANx 50%, planning deco dives. For that, I still use tables, even with a computer and its backup. But that is another point :no:

My reaction about mental calculation is coming from my experience as a scientific teachers. Some kids are so used to utilize machines that they do not realize, when they did something wrong with it. Simply because they could not mentally approximate the result, they could not see that the number given by the screen is simply impossible. Hope I am clear :depressed:
 
Am I nuts for wanting to know how to use the charts and not just the computer?
Your question seems to be fairly straightforward, you do not appear to be asking an either-or question. So, my answer would be, 'NO! You are not nuts.' You want to learn the tables, and learn how to use a computer. Good for you. 'All knowledge is learning and therefore good.'

But, I must warn you, if this inclination toward learning just for the sake of learning continues, the next thing you know you will want to learn to dive both a jacket BCD and a BP/W, you may want to try diving a long hose on your regulator just to see how it performs, you conceivably may decide you want to learn to dive double cylinders as well as single cylinders, and you might even want to try split fins. It is a slippery slope.
 
flippedr6, you are not "nuts" for wanting to be able to use dive tables. I think everyone should be able to do so for dive planning purposes, even though you computer will also assist you in dive planning. Most agencies are moving away from tables as part of certification, by I individually never will abandon them. I use them a lot in the advanced class, particularly as we do altitude adjusting, for dive planning. www.youtube.com/watch?v=2EU3SFfG is on site on line that may be of us - very extensive. There are many more. Or... find an older open water diver book that has the rdp section. There are plenty of them around. Good for you for wanting to know all you can about diving and dive planning!
DivemasterDennis
 
Reading the tables isn't difficult. Look at them yourself and read the instructions printed on the tables. Then ask someone who knows how to use them whether your understanding of how to plan a few example dives is correct. If not correct, let him show you how it works and you can try a few examples once again.
There are free practice questions at one of the online dive store websites,too.
 
Know what's even better? Having a simple reference like a gauge. ;)Why drop a small piece of standard equipment?

Because a lot of shops are pushing dive computers and not including the gauge with the standard equipment. No one is dropping it. They are substituting.



Don't know where you go; most people I see with console. For a rec diver, it's stupid to not have one.

And if you look closely at those consoles you might notice they have dive computers in place of depth gauges.
 
I'm old enough to look at this discussion with another comparison. I spent a LOT of time learning to use a slide rule -- and I still own one. How many of you have ever SEEN one, let alone seen anyone use one? A slide rule was a very valid method of computation, and made the use of adding logarithms to multiply pellucidly clear. But when calculators came in, it was very little time before everyone abandoned the use of the older, more cumbersome tool -- and I'll bet there is little time spent teaching logarithms in school any more, until or unless you get into more focused mathematics or engineering.

The problem with computers is not that they aren't tables. The problem with them is that people don't learn how to use them. It is somewhat difficult to teach a computer-based class if everyone has a different computer, or if no one owns a computer and you are teaching them how to use the shop's devices, which are ancient and don't include dive planning functions. This process easily leads to the "magic bracelet" phenomenon. But if you really TEACH nitrogen absorption and elimination, and what decompression is, you can give students the background to use their tool more rationally -- just as better teaching of those matters helped students understand the tables better, too.

The bottom line is that the concepts have to be understood. The tool you use to do the metrics can be different. The OP was worried that he didn't get an adequate education, and he may well not have -- but only if he didn't come away with a very basic understanding of nitrogen absorption and washout, the need to monitor time underwater, and the need to control ascent rates.
 
...The bottom line is that the concepts have to be understood. The tool you use to do the metrics can be different. The OP was worried that he didn't get an adequate education, and he may well not have -- but only if he didn't come away with a very basic understanding of nitrogen absorption and washout, the need to monitor time underwater, and the need to control ascent rates.

Well said and with very few words.
 
There are free practice questions at one of the online dive store websites,too.

Yes, that's the link that I provided above

---------- Post added March 17th, 2014 at 12:04 PM ----------

FYI, the Army never dropped bayonet training. We keep it because the training in itself has value, value beyond just learning to fight with one.

Same reason would apply for teaching tables. It produces a diver with more skills, more confidence.


So the solution is not to lengthen the training, but to lower the standard?

How long does it take to teach tables? An hour at most?

Army drops bayonets, revamps training | Army Times | armytimes.com
So, Does the Military Still Use Bayonets? | TIME.com

While there are valid reasons for bayonet training, even the Army has limited time for training. And if the Army has to pick and choose what it trains, a basic OW instructor has to as well.

If only an hour is spent teaching the tables, then the student won't master them, and it's the waste of an hour of teaching time. Using the tables is not rocket science, but using them is certainly not intuitive. It requires practice, practice, and more practice to become proficient.

As TS&M says, it's the theory that must be taught.
 

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