guide/buddy deco dilemma

[jongles]

All thoughts on this appreciated.
Just a quick background on myself. I'm a AOW (PADI) and had about 70/80 dives logged prior to this, I have my deep and wreck spec also. In general I would call myself a confident diver who is aware of my limits and I like to treat every diving trip as an opportunity to learn and improve.
I've just got back from a dive holiday in Indonesia (very nice by the way) and during my trip had a very difficult dive from which I hope I have learned very important lessons not only for diving but life.

Heres the details. I had been diving for a few days with the same dive shop and on one of the days I was in a 4 person group, myself and the guide and a couple who where an instructor and rescue diver respectively, I was buddied up with the guide. The first dive went without incident although the couple where avid photographers and trailed behind quite a bit on the dive. We went down to near 30(meters) with an average depth of 17. During the surface interval I was chatting with the couple and he(the instructor) told me that he wished to do all 3 dives available that day but his wife would probably just do 2. This put my mind at ease as I was aware that deco could be an issue having done 3 dives the day before.

So off we headed after a SI of 90mins for dive 2. We descended down towards the bottom and the guide and myself stopped at about 26, the couple continued down to approx 30 and started taking photos. The guide started to move along the canyon and after a short while had to stop to wait for the couple. A few polite bang bangs and they started to follow. The dive continued in this manner for the next 15/20 mins at which stage I had decided that I would make sure I remained shallower then the guide and increased the regularility of my computer checks. Another 10 minutes and while waiting for the couple again I let the guide know I was concerned about deco, he concurred. When they rejoined us he clearly indicated to them our deco concerns they both checked their computers and give us clear Ok signs. The viz was good the message was clear their response was clear.

We move off again gradually ascending along the canyon and after few minutes look back to see the couple still at our last stop taking photos. The message was obviously not that clear. We wait and wait the guide bangs we wait, eventually they catch up. Finally the couple reach us and my computer has by this stage gone to less then 10 mins. Once again the guide indicates that there is a problem with the computers only more strongly. The couple give their computers a long hard look, and seem confused by the guides concerns they double check their computers and give us a clear indication that their computers are OK. Great now I have doubt.

The guide indicates that they need to follow closely they indicate ok and off we go. They do not however stay close and now if anything are lagging even further behind. Yet again we wait and bang and as we hang around I watch my computer go 5 4 3 2 1 --. Great I need to do a deco stop, however I am not panicking I'm far from happy but I am not panicked. The couple are now following more closely but are not concerned enough to stop taking photos so our ascent is still been slowed up. Finally we get to 15 meters and the end of the dive site and the guide is trying to indicate that the dive is over and its time to start surfacing. The instuctor however has spotted a turtle and chases after him with his camera.I have no doubt anymore, they are clearly nuts. My computer now has the do not ascend past 3 meters symbol with the number 10 beside it. To be honest I've never seen that symbol before because I only do recreational diving so I am somewhat confused I assume it means a 10 min safety stop. Again I am not happy actually I'm furious but I'm not panicked I have loads of air left for an extended safety stop. As it turns out that 10 means I have to wait 10 mins before starting my 3 min safety stop.
I conduct my 13 min safety stop and indicate to the guide my buddy that I am ok. He tells me to surface, I pause to let him know I still have 60 bar left and is he sure? I can wait. He clearly indicates that he wants me to surface and that he is ok. The couple still have to finish their safety stop how much they have remaining I do not know. So I leave him and surface. At the surface theres a bit of chop, the boat is nearby but not close close. I'm stumped do I signal an emergency? Yes the guys have a long safety stop to conduct but there was never any indication of any other problem. The boat has spotted me and moves closer I swim to meet it and embark. On the boat I'm explaining to another dive leader whats going on. The rest of group now surfaces and I get to see the dive guide my buddy sucking down 02. Apparently the couple ended up OOA and never finished their safety stop. I'm guessing that they easily did over 20 minutes of a safety stop , how much they had left to do I'll never know.
So lots of questions. Can a dive guide be your buddy when they have a group to look after? Was the dive shop wrong to dive potentially deep sites back to back? Should I have stayed at the safety stop and let them drain my air? Should I have signalled an emergency at the surface? Should every dive brief include the "we are not doing deco diving" speech?

Suffice to say what I have learned is that there where several oppurtunities early in the dive when I knew deep down that the dive was going to hell but instead of acting I allowed supposedly more experienced divers control my profile. I was a good enough diver to know it was all wrong but not a strong enough person to call the dive. Tough to accept but true. However there is another large question, what if (like so many other holiday divers)I hadn't been diving with a computer? The tone of this would be alot different.

Questions suggestions and criticisms welcome (go easy on me though I've already replayed this dive in my head too many times)
Jongles

 

[00wabbit]

Don't forget that thumbs up is not a question. It is a statement.

When you were ready to go you could have given the thumbs up. The guide should give the crazy couple the thumbs up and everyone should have started heading up.

 

[DevonDiver]

I wouldn't let a dive guide or buddy take me into circumstances which are dangerous. Unplanned decompression for non-deco trained/equipped divers is dangerous.

• I would signal abort (thumbs up) and indicate deco (there's a specific sign for this - but a combination of 'problem', point to computer then signal, again, ascend is sufficient).

• I would expect the divemaster to respect that situation and ascend the group - to do otherwise is a breach of safe diving practices (something which a qualified divemaster is beholden to abide with).

• If the divemaster failed to respect that situation and my signal to dive, I would ascend anyway.

• There would be problems when the divemaster returned to the boat, for sure.

• If the divemaster was concerned that there was a problem with a computer/s, then the correct response would have been to immediately abort the dive. Again, safe diving practices and taught protocols dictate that response.

• If another buddy pair refused direction (to ascend/abort) from the divemaster, then they should ascend with their buddy/others. The remaining buddy pair are qualified divers and, as such, capable of running their own dive and making their own decisions. They are not the responsibility of the divemaster.

The biggest learning outcome from this (and something most divers eventually understand with sufficient experience) is that there is a plentiful supply of dive 'professionals' who cannot be trusted to apply safe diving practices when guiding dives. The diver, therefore, should never abdicate responsibility for their own safety and well-being to that person. Remain skeptical and look after yourself. Don't do 'trust me' dives or mindlessly follow a herd.

As an aside, to the OP: Did you report this incident to the respective agency that the DM/Dive Op represents?

The ONLY way that agencies know if there is a problem with safety/professionalism is through the reports of divers. If nobody reports incidents like these (and never expect the DM or dive op to do so...) then the agencies remain blissfully unaware of problems that exist.... and cannot do anything to rectify them. Don't expect dive pros/operations to self-regulate or self-correct voluntarily... problems tend to get worse if not addressed, never better. Agencies typically seek to remediate problems, so don't worry about people getting sacked, losing credentials etc... that only happens if they keep ignoring agency guidance on improvement.

Please do copy your report onto an email to the respective agency... the dive industry needs that.

Can a dive guide be your buddy when they have a group to look after?

Yes, they can. However, doing so should not lead to any compromise in group or individual safety.

Everyone should be in a buddy pair (or possibly a three-some). Those pairs may be part of the group, yet remain tangible buddy teams, capable of ascending, or continuing, by themselves and separate from the group.

A dive operation may have a policy against un-escorted buddy teams. However, that policy cannot supersede immediate dive safety. Divers in/near decompression is such an immediate safety concern. If a buddy team ignored direction from the divemaster, before or during the dive, then my personal opinion is that it would be their last dive with that operation, ever.

Was the dive shop wrong to dive potentially deep sites back to back?

If the dives were planned and dived as planned, then no - there was nothing wrong. Every diver should calculate their own plan anyway (plan within a plan) and they should determine whether they are comfortable to conduct that plan based on their own training, experience, comfort levels and desire for conservatism.

Should I have stayed at the safety stop and let them drain my air?

If they needed more air to complete the obligatory decompression, then yes (as a voluntary rescue/intervention, but not as a responsibility). If they had sufficient gas for the decompression, then no, it wouldn't be necessary. Personally, I'd hang out with the group and off-gas more, if I had that gas and they were waiting there anyway.

Should I have signalled an emergency at the surface?

If they had insufficient gas to complete the decompression, then yes... that absolutely warrants being categorized as an emergency. Missing decompression can lead to injury.

The textbook answer is, of course, that they were completing emergency decompression - therefore it was an emergency situation. The boat may have responded by supplying a further gas supply (swum down, or on a line). That response would depend upon the professionalism of the outfit and their preparedness for that foreseen scenario.

Should every dive brief include the "we are not doing deco diving" speech?

Personally, I think not - every diver is educated about the prohibition on deco without appropriate training/equipment. That said, when guiding groups of unknown divers, a reminder may be very beneficial nonetheless.

In reality... there SHOULD be a plan that calculates the bottom time and NDL. Divers should know how much no-stop time should remain at the end of the dive. That can be more difficult with multiple computers in use for multi-level dives... but the outline plan should exist nonetheless. Prudent, conservative divers (and dive operations!) should plan to preserve ample no-stop time as a barrier to decompression.

One final 'lesson learnt': Emergency functions and protocols are best not left to be worked-out until when an emergency occurs. That includes the functions of your dive computer. READ THE MANUAL.... and seek advice if you don't understand what it's telling you. FAR TOO FEW divers understand how/why their computers display emergency decompression... that's dangerous.

 

[Agility]

What was the dive plan?
Did it state the group had to stay together?

I have dived with buddypairs that always did "their thing", I have no problem with this if it is discussed prior to the splash.
If the guide is assigned a buddy that is o.k. as long as he is acting as a guide. Guides are not there to save divers not adhering to the aggreed diveplan.

You are resposible for your safety. If you feel you want to stay within NDL it is your right to do so. Signal your buddy you are ascending to a shallower level, wait for his response and do so.

There was no reason to signal an emergency at the time you surfaced.
Many divers need less air than I do so they can stay down longer, I state this before or at the briefing. Usually this leads to an aggreement that the buddypairs can surface independently.

 

[nimoh]

my plan for such situations (although I have never had to execute it) is to signal thumbs up when I want to go up, and if I get a no, then I signal again. If I get a no for the second time, I go up on my own and start looking for a new buddy.

Ultimately the divemaster was your buddy and should have gone up with you, leaving the instructor and rescue diver to fend for themselves, however this would have probably resulted in a much more serious issue, and probably a fatality or two. I think the divemaster handled it well, but probably should have ended the dive earlier, once it was realized that the couple was going to be a problem....but hindsight is 20/20.

 

[Andy_from_Germany]

Maybe I misunderstand Devon Diver, if so appologies!

I would not report this incident to the certification agency as I can't see any misbehaviour or failure on the side of the DM and buddy of the OP or the operator.
If guests don't accept signals from the dive guide or, worse, they signal "OK" and then act completely otherwise you can't blame the guide. What should he do? Grab the others on the tank and drag them behind or up? Seriously: The only people who f....ed up have been those who absolutely didn't stay with the group, even putting them in danger.

To the OP regarding his question whether he should have stayed at the safety stop or not. It simply depends on the situation. Apparently when you surfaced there was no indication that the other couple might run out of air. Therefore what's the point for you staying down? Otherwise of course I would have stayed down and gave them my air if necessary. As you informed the staff on the boat about what was going on "down there" you did well.

Should you have disobeyed the guide and dove higher? If I don't feel comfortable I ascend a bit but of course tell the guide before ascending and then follow above him. As well if I want to surface I let him know and, if there are other people of my group below, tell him that it's ok for me if he continues the dive with them. Of course it helps to tell him that prior to the dive, too.

Just my 2 cents, Andy

Editing due to formatting isssues

 

[Mr Carcharodon]

It is understandable that you may have been uncomfortable given your training. However there are a lot of people out there who are not particularly concerned about the group and only focus on their buddy team. That seems to be what happened here. Following a noisy guide around may not have been the other couples plan.

Dive computers vary wildly on NDL times. If the other couple had NDL time left should they have aborted their dive to accommodate you? Maybe yes but if it was not discussed ahead of time anything could happen...and in this case it did. In some locations you will see individuals surfacing 20 or minutes before the rest of the group depending on their relative gas consumption and deco status. You can only find out if that is typical by asking questions before the trip or during the pre-dive briefing.

There are also people who non-pulsed about sliding into deco if they know they have the needed gas. Deco is not a mortal sin but running out of gas may come close. Very clearly if you did not have a deco plan or a plan for how much gas you needed surfacing and keeping yourself safe was the first priority.

 

[DevonDiver]

I would not report this incident to the certification agency as I can't see any misbehaviour or failure on the side of the DM and buddy of the OP or the operator.

Because you aren't reporting a misbehavior... you are reporting an incident.

Divers entering unplanned (emergency) decompression, then being given emergency medical treatment (oxygen) constitutes an incident. Dive Pros are beholden to report incidents, but few ever do, especially if it involves them. This shields the agency from the gritty-realities of their representative members... it creates 'rose-tinted glasses'.

Personally, I still think there is tangible supervisory failure - if people enter emergency deco and are put on O2. There are a number of circumstances to look at; including pre-dive briefings, dive planning, communication before and during the dive... All of which can contribute to a scenario like the OP describes.

We can't make a judgement here, based on one-side of a story and without the full facts. An agency can (and will) investigate however and gain a clearer appreciation.... and that's why reports should be made.

Dive Pros should be held accountable. Agencies do have Quality Assurance programs - but they inevitably rely upon pro-active reporting by consumers. No reports, no effective quality assurance. It's as simple as that.

 

[jongles]

Thanks for the replies
On the subject of a dive plan- there was the usual safety brief lost buddy 3minstop etc etc the site was extremely straight forward so the plan as such was very brief. We descend to a mouth of a canyon and follow it till it finishes at 15 meters. There was never a discussion about divers doing their own thing.

The dive shop did conduct an inquiry afterwards and I gave them a detailed report of the dive from my perspective. The guide was definitely admonished and the very next day and for the rest of week I was there all the safety briefs included a deco element ie stay level and within viz of your guide. I have not reported the incident and still am unsure if I will. I do not fully blame the dive shop, as a certified diver surely some of the blame falls on me, failure to act. If I wanted to report anyone it would be the couple, an instuctor who unknowingly runs up deco and goes OOA on a fun dive,frightening. Suffice to say the couple did not dive with the shop again.

I know my description of the incident goes on a bit but it really doesn't capture just how sloooow these guys where. Essentially we had to stop every 15meters or so ( the viz) and wait for the couple to move along. I had dived with the guide before and he definitely was not a bang bang addict quite the opposite. They just would not move and both seemed to be taking photos of everything and anything. In the end the guide resorted to the stick which had some effectbut not enough.

Thanks for the clarification devondiver, a unplanned deco stop is a defacto emergency. I should have A) stayed with them and let them use my air or B)surfaced and signalled.I did neither. Obviously they never indicated that air was an issue but then again they continually indicated that deco was not an issue.
You are of course absolutely right about my computer I should have been fully versed in all its warning symbols. I knew I was in deco but wasn't 100% on what the minutes meant. Lesson absolutely learnt.

Just a quick response to Mr Carcharodon. yes I was uncomfortable been a recreational diver and you're right deco is not a mortal sin. Dive agencies do not own the oceans and people are free to do whatever diving they wish. However this dive was a recreational dive and going into deco is a unstated no no. Dive computers can vary and I can understand if a pair wish to continue if they are still within NDL however a quick review of my original post shows that this was not the case. They continually said deco was not an issue but in the end it turned out that it was an issue and they ended up doing at least 20 minutes of a safety stop before going OOA and surfacing before completing their deco stop.

Suffice to say when you you anaylsis an accident/incident usually theres a point early on where a decision is made or there is a failure to react appropriately and from there things snowball. Obviously I should have called the dive once I ran into deco however as I reread my own post I realise there was an earlier oppurtunity. During the surface interval I was aware that deco could be an issue as the first dive went so slowly. If we had been a group of friends diving I'm sure I would have mentioned it during the SI and the 2nd dive would have gone ahead without incident.

 

[DevonDiver]

I have not reported the incident and still am unsure if I will. I do not fully blame the dive shop, as a certified diver surely some of the blame falls on me, failure to act.

It's not about blame or admonishment. The scuba agencies need to know about incidents that happen. This helps them improve training and quality. Just look at some of the "How much experience for a Divemaster course is needed?" type threads... agencies need to know how their training systems work. Unless told otherwise, they think everything must be rosy. One of the reasons why DM prerequisites were cut progressively over the years....