dumpsterDiver
Banned
- Messages
- 9,003
- Reaction score
- 4,661
- # of dives
- 2500 - 4999
guide/buddy deco dilemma
- Thread starter jongles
- Start date
Please register or login
Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.
Benefits of registering include
- Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
- A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
- You can make this box go away
I think there are compromises with buddying up with a guide. Because the guide has responsibility for the group, he or she may not be able to meet all the criteria I would say apply to a buddy -- in particular, being able to end the dive together. In this case, the guide should have sent you up much earlier and dealt with the slowpokes.
I do not think there was any reason to signal an emergency when you surfaced. As far as I could tell from your story, there WAS no emergency when you surfaced -- there were just a couple of divers who may or may not have been in deco (apparently were) and needed to do their deco obligation. You did not know they didn't have enough gas to get it done.
There's nothing at all wrong with doing two deep sites back to back. It's up to the divers to manage their profiles in that circumstance. I HAVE had dive operators brief that the expected dive time at a given site is probably 20 minutes, based on their experience with various computers and the profile we had done on the first dive. (They were right.) But it's really up to the diver to deal with this.
I think, reading the story, that a) the couple were not nearly vigilant enough on their own behalf; b) the guide was not nearly proactive enough in intervening when it should have been becoming obvious that the couple were not taking care of themselves. Had I been the guide, at some point well before the end, I would have ducked down to where they were and LOOKED at their gauges -- computers and pressure gauges -- to make sure they weren't being idiots. If I didn't like what I saw, I would have been emphatic about telling them to get their butts up shallower in the water column. I might have lost my tip . . . but it's better than losing my divers. And finally, during the deco, I would have popped up and requested a hang tank with a reg on it, so that the folks on deco didn't have to run out of gas.
This incident is primarily the fault of the couple, but the dive guide could have been far more effective in minimizing it. I rarely fault guides, because I believe in individual responsibility, but when it becomes clear that a buddy team is NOT acting in a responsible way, the guide IS there to do what can be done to ameliorate the damage.
I do not think there was any reason to signal an emergency when you surfaced. As far as I could tell from your story, there WAS no emergency when you surfaced -- there were just a couple of divers who may or may not have been in deco (apparently were) and needed to do their deco obligation. You did not know they didn't have enough gas to get it done.
There's nothing at all wrong with doing two deep sites back to back. It's up to the divers to manage their profiles in that circumstance. I HAVE had dive operators brief that the expected dive time at a given site is probably 20 minutes, based on their experience with various computers and the profile we had done on the first dive. (They were right.) But it's really up to the diver to deal with this.
I think, reading the story, that a) the couple were not nearly vigilant enough on their own behalf; b) the guide was not nearly proactive enough in intervening when it should have been becoming obvious that the couple were not taking care of themselves. Had I been the guide, at some point well before the end, I would have ducked down to where they were and LOOKED at their gauges -- computers and pressure gauges -- to make sure they weren't being idiots. If I didn't like what I saw, I would have been emphatic about telling them to get their butts up shallower in the water column. I might have lost my tip . . . but it's better than losing my divers. And finally, during the deco, I would have popped up and requested a hang tank with a reg on it, so that the folks on deco didn't have to run out of gas.
This incident is primarily the fault of the couple, but the dive guide could have been far more effective in minimizing it. I rarely fault guides, because I believe in individual responsibility, but when it becomes clear that a buddy team is NOT acting in a responsible way, the guide IS there to do what can be done to ameliorate the damage.
DevonDiver
N/A
Not sure there's too much to be learned from the OP's post. First, the description of events is a bit imprecise to draw meaningful conclusions. As noted by others, dive computers vary significantly w.r.t. NDL calculations (e.g., SUUNTO is oft cited as being ultra conservative). Mixed gases, breathing rate, etc. influence when and how any individual surfaces. Given that this was rec diving below 100 feet, it would appear that the OP overreacted, perhaps distracted by the two divers lagging behind which would have been annoying. Second, not sure why the OP was so concerned about the other two divers. He should have enjoyed his dive, made sure his dive plan was sound and being followed, and when the time arrived to surface, signal his buddy (i.e., guide) and surface. Also, make sure to learn to read the dive computer properly. Underwater is not the time to guess what "10" means.
DevonDiver
N/A
You contradict yourself, because you continue to describe some very meaningful and educational conclusions....
Lesson #1: Dive computer algorithms vary, so a diver should not assume that buddies/team mates/group divers are being advised of the same NDL as them.
Lesson #2: Time-to-NDL (remaining bottom time) should be frequently communicated and confirmed, as standard, between buddies/team/group.
Lesson #3: Bad divers can cause further task-loading for the buddies/team/group. This can reduce situational awareness - increasing the risk of mistakes and accidents.
Lesson #4: When diving with unknown or less predictable divers, a deterioration in communication and team skills should be predicted. This should necessitate a raised situational awareness.
Lesson #5: A problem arising with the buddy/team/group frequently cause elevated stress and anxiety in the observing diver.
Lesson #6: Problems without pre-considered solutions cause increased stress and anxiety.
Lesson #7: Deviations from expectations (whether or not assumed or explicitly communicated in dive planning) can cause elevated stress and anxiety in a diver.
Lesson #8: Diving planning must be conducted as a group, if diving in a group (a buddy pair if diving as such, or a team if diving as a team). Dive planning must be comprehensive and fully inclusive of all divers undertaking that planned dive.
Lesson #9: Dive planning must not assume shared expectations or identical protocols for each diver. One purpose of dive planning and preparation is to ensure a mutually understood approach and eliminate false assumptions. The less familiar/intimate the participants, the more fundamental and detailed the dive plan should become.
Lesson #10: Some divers (a minority) will demonstrate inherent disregard for the planned dive and other basic safe diving principles.
Lesson #11: There is nothing a diver can do to enforce compliance amongst divers who are prepared to disregard planning or agreed buddy/team/group safety parameters.
Lesson #12: Every diver should have a self-reliant plan to preserve their own safety in the event that their buddy/team/group take actions that jeopardize that safety. I suggest this contingency plan should be very similar in protocol to that used when separated from the buddy/team/group.
Lesson #13: Dive guides/divemasters may have conflicting priorities between a designated buddy and the wider group.
Lesson #14: Some divers, including guides/divemasters, may not respect the prudent rule of "any diver had the right to abort the dive at any time, for any reason". It is wise not to assume they will respect that - and contingency plan for your own safety as a precaution against it.
Lesson #15: Communicate and confirm that priority, and resultant contingency plans, in expectation of that.
Lesson #16: Train and familiarize yourself with every piece of equipment that you use.
Lesson #17: Familiarization includes all functions of that equipment, even those that are for contingencies/emergencies only and, thus, rarely used.
Lesson #18: Planning and preparation for emergencies (including unplanned deco) must happen before the event, not during it.
Micksherryn
Registered
Hi Guys, being from Australia Indonesia is on our doorstep so its where we go to do our warm water diving.
We are both trained in deco, IANTD Deep, and don't really worry about going into deco as long as we recognise that we have the air. We dive with the same guide when we go to Bali and he knows/remembers us from our previous trips. He is happy to let us go into deco as he knows that we wont do it unless we have the gas.
The things I have seen in Tulamben are really scary. I have seen a diver on the guides occy and then seen him 10 minutes later still in the water, all be it when we were doing a safety stop, but still breathing on the guides occy! Speaking to our guide afterwards he says that its fairly common practice if you want a tip! I know that they're not paid well but to have to risk their life so the diver can see the fish for a bit longer is absurd!
Mick
We are both trained in deco, IANTD Deep, and don't really worry about going into deco as long as we recognise that we have the air. We dive with the same guide when we go to Bali and he knows/remembers us from our previous trips. He is happy to let us go into deco as he knows that we wont do it unless we have the gas.
The things I have seen in Tulamben are really scary. I have seen a diver on the guides occy and then seen him 10 minutes later still in the water, all be it when we were doing a safety stop, but still breathing on the guides occy! Speaking to our guide afterwards he says that its fairly common practice if you want a tip! I know that they're not paid well but to have to risk their life so the diver can see the fish for a bit longer is absurd!
Mick
I dive quite frequently in Egypt where the "definition" of Divemaster is a bit different. I just came back from Raja Ampat ( Indonesia ) where the system is roughly the same. If the divers do not have a sufficient level to dive on their own, a "real" Divemaster is appointed and paid ( 6 USD/Dive) . He is then responsible for the divers. For Independant "level" divers, you can or cannot have a divemaster that act as a diveguide. But in this case you are "on your own". As said by many others, the dive guide is there to show the way and the most interesting things to see on the dive site. Nothing more. An "independant diver" is in charge of his and his buddy's dives.:kiss2:
Similar threads
