Ripped off for my AOW training

[RJP]

It's a shame that AOW is marketed as a card that will make you capable of any dive above 130ft and within NDL.

Can you provide examples of such marketing, please?

 

[boulderjohn]

I think something else to be said is that many/most wrecks require AOW to dive them.....the quality of the diver is irrelevant. Sometimes, log books and other certs are irrelevant.

Here's why.

The dive operator believes that a certain dive requires skill beyond the basics. How do they require it? Well, let's skip all the way to a dive accident and subsequent law suit. Consider two situations:
1. The dive operator has a hard and fast rule that the diver must have a certain credential such as AOW. The deceased diver did indeed have AOW. The operator was following policy, and the diver should have had the required skills for the dive. The fault lies with the diver for not exhibiting skill consistent with the level of certification.
2. The dive operator allows the crew to make a judgment based upon the diver's log book and possible other credentials. Was that log book faked? Even if it wasn't, if the diver was not capable of doing the dive, then the burden is on the dive operator to show that it used sound judgment in allowing the diver to do the dive.

If you are a dive operator, which situation sounds better to you?

....and it's a shame. It's a shame that AOW is marketed as a card that will make you capable of any dive above 130ft and within NDL.

Both the OW course and the AOW course specifically state that this is not true. Both state that more training should be done for dives outside of the student's experience and for dives deeper than 100 feet.

 

[SailNaked]

if an instructor is making money or not, or if Padi or other company is making money, or if the course is short or long is not really the point,

the question you want to ask your self is are you getting the training you need to be a safe competent diver.

there is a skill I never learned in any course that I have seriously needed a few times:
how do you hold onto an incrusted anchor line in 3 kts of current keep track of a buddy and your regulator in your mouth? and maybe with jelly fish flying by?

ok so maybe this should be part of AOW, then again how do you enforce that in the midwest?

it can not be said enough: you are diving, you need to know what you need to know. do not settle for a card, get what you need and make the instructor teach you. Honestly every instructor I know does not do it for the $2.00 an hour we are paid. and maybe some make more than me, but well that is the market here and I am still happy to do it.

 

[tracydr]

Here's why.

The dive operator believes that a certain dive requires skill beyond the basics. How do they require it? Well, let's skip all the way to a dive accident and subsequent law suit. Consider two situations:
1. The dive operator has a hard and fast rule that the diver must have a certain credential such as AOW. The deceased diver did indeed have AOW. The operator was following policy, and the diver should have had the required skills for the dive. The fault lies with the diver for not exhibiting skill consistent with the level of certification.
2. The dive operator allows the crew to make a judgment based upon the diver's log book and possible other credentials. Was that log book faked? Even if it wasn't, if the diver was not capable of doing the dive, then the burden is on the dive operator to show that it used sound judgment in allowing the diver to do the dive.

If you are a dive operator, which situation sounds better to you?

Both the OW course and the AOW course specifically state that this is not true. Both state that more training should be done for dives outside of the student's experience and for dives deeper than 100 feet.

One of the deaths on the Andrea Doria involved a diver with a faked log book. If I remember right, the diver's family sued the operator,too.

 

[herr2720]

Like any training you get what you want out of it. I actually had some great learning experiences with my AOW cert. I think that $400 was out of line, but that's capitalism, I paid $350 for AOW but got a drysuit and Nitrox cert class with it (otherwise AOW would have been $180) and the class and dives ended up being one on one with the instructor. The main reasons I did the AOW were that I was going to get drysuit/Nitrox anyway and combining everything got me a discount, and I wanted to have AOW so they would let me do the Pelagic dive off Kona. For the 10 years I had my OW I never had an operation stop me from going below 60ft, doubt many operations do unless they think you are a complete tool or they have been sued in the past.

For my deep dive we bottomed out at 107 ft (I've had multiple previous dives to 80-90ft prior to the class with no issues). I got narced, my instructor and I quickly realized it and we ascended to 80ft where I felt normal again, it was a good learning experience. Oddly enough that's the only time I've been narced and it was nice it happened with an instructor with tons of experience who I have dove with before versus a Craigslist/SB 1st time dive buddy.

For navigation, if your taking the class in an area where the viz is 50-100ft you can make a square without a compass. If you only have 5-10ft viz it actually makes you rely on your compass.

At the end of the day it your advanced C-Card really doesn't prove anything, it's just another step or learning experience, however you want to take it. If you have OW you can rent a tank and gear and really do whatever the hell you want on your own.

 

[flots am]

With all respect to instructors good and bad, here is a big problem in defense of the instructors. At the end of the day no instructor will dive until they perfect someone's skills and dive experience

They're supposed to, assuming the definition of "perfect" is that the skills can be done on-demand, repeatedly and effectively with little anxiety. Perfect as in "looks like a training video" isn't necessary, but safely diving with good skills and confidence is.

If something like a mask clear or regulator retrieval is stressful in the 80 degree, clear pool, it's not going to get any better in cold water and bad viz. Certifying someone when they're not ready, just for financial reasons is just begging for disaster.

---------- Post added November 27th, 2013 at 01:57 PM ----------

there is a skill I never learned in any course that I have seriously needed a few times:
how do you hold onto an incrusted anchor line in 3 kts of current keep track of a buddy and your regulator in your mouth? and maybe with jelly fish flying by?

With a Jon Line, a reg with a cover designed to not freeflow in current (Atomic M1 has one), a seacure mouthpiece, a great zip-tie and a death-grip on your buddy?

What do I win?

flots.

 

[victorzamora]

Can you provide examples of such marketing, please?

A dive shop I spent a lot of time at/with specifically told students that once they had their AOW card they could do ANY diving above 130ft within NDLs, even some cavern and light wreck penetration. Actually, pretty much every instructor or shop I've spoken with in person about AOW has said that AOW certifies you for any dive up to 130ft or 40m. I'm not saying that it's plastered over PADI's site or that PADI endorses it, but when a shop is trying to sell it to students, it's what comes up. I was in the Keys and told that I couldn't do an 80ft dive because I didn't have my AOW card WITH me....but that if I took their AOW class, I could do any recreational dive I wanted and would be certified to 130ft. I was told I couldn't dive my drysuit without the Drysuit Specialty card, which isn't something PADI recommends, but they still tried enforcing it anyway. The point is that this comes up both implied and stated directly by shops selling the cert.

Here's why.

The dive operator believes that a certain dive requires skill beyond the basics. How do they require it? Well, let's skip all the way to a dive accident and subsequent law suit. Consider two situations:
1. The dive operator has a hard and fast rule that the diver must have a certain credential such as AOW. The deceased diver did indeed have AOW. The operator was following policy, and the diver should have had the required skills for the dive. The fault lies with the diver for not exhibiting skill consistent with the level of certification.
2. The dive operator allows the crew to make a judgment based upon the diver's log book and possible other credentials. Was that log book faked? Even if it wasn't, if the diver was not capable of doing the dive, then the burden is on the dive operator to show that it used sound judgment in allowing the diver to do the dive.

If you are a dive operator, which situation sounds better to you?

The first one, without question. I'm not saying it's wrong for that to be a minimum standard. If that's what the Dive Op wants to set as the standard, that's their right to do so. If I don't like it, I can go elsewhere. Same goes for pretty much any other standard set forth by dive ops. It didn't really bother me, it's just a factor. Shops often sell the AOW course as a ticket to "good" dives, since [sarcasm]clearly your lowly OW cert can't be used on any good dives[/sarcasm]. I'm not saying that dive ops shouldn't be allowed to set forth whatever (reasonable) rule they want to, it's just that if it's seen as a ticket to "good" dives then the motivation for learning is reduced and the sentiment of "purchasing a ticket" is increased.

Both the OW course and the AOW course specifically state that this is not true. Both state that more training should be done for dives outside of the student's experience and for dives deeper than 100 feet.

I'm aware. I'm very aware....but your average OW diver isn't as informed as I am, and far from as informed as you or others on this board are. I'm not saying PADI says that or even implies it, I'm simply saying that plenty of instructors (every instructor I've spoken about it face to face with) either implies it or says it outright.

 

[RJP]

A dive shop I spent a lot of time at/with specifically told students that once they had their AOW card they could do ANY diving above 130ft within NDLs, even some cavern and light wreck penetration. Actually, pretty much every instructor or shop I've spoken with in person about AOW has said that AOW certifies you for any dive up to 130ft or 40m.

"Individual idiots talking out of their @sses" isn't the same as "marketing" though I suppose no one should be surprised as these are the same shop owners who sell divers $250 gimmick fins and retractors and all sorts of other unnecessary bits and baubles.

Working on a boat that takes charters from more than a dozen NJ, NY, and PA shops I can assure you that none of those shops or instructors mislead their customers as you describe, as I hear them debriefing their students after their dives and signing off on their temp cards at the end of their class.

All that said, at what point does "caveat emptor" come into play? The PADI and NAUI sites are pretty clear about what students might reasonably expect from their various courses.

 

[victorzamora]

I never said that PADI or NAUI were marketing them as such, or even implied a professional marketing strategy. I said "they're being marketed as" which isn't an official thing. It is the same type of instructor that sells the $250 gimmick fins, you're right. The same diver that buys those gimmicks also buys an AOW cert....but even more divers get certs than buy gear, so there are MORE divers getting gimmicked into AOW than are buying those gimmicky retractors and fins.

Also, are you saying you've never seen a diver with less than 20 total dives get on a charter requiring an AOW cert? If you have, are you saying every one of those guys had an instructor that was SUPER invested in churning out a fantastic diver and went SUPER far above and beyond the minimum requirements? Are you saying you've never seen a diver that has been sold a piece of gimmicky gear? If so, I can't imagine there is any truth to your statement. Period. Most importantly, think of the diver that would be sold a gimmicky cert or piece of gear. Do they often dive off of NJ? Not a lot of them would do a cold, dark dive. Many dive Caribbean only. You're getting a different cross section of divers, anyway!

PADI and NAUI are fairly clear about what to expect, but not everybody does research on every cert on the official site. The official sites for PADI and NAUI aren't all-inclusive. The PADI site doesn't mention distinctive specialites, so how am I supposed to research them, anyway?

---------- Post added November 27th, 2013 at 03:54 PM ----------

Now that I think about it, I met a diver in Mx from the Jersey area that got his AOW card on a dive to 62ft. He had an AL13 pony so he could have more air with him when on dives in Mx. His RMV was at least 2ft3/min (maybe an exageration, but not by much). He went on a wreck dive with us to 92ft (deepest he had been) and blew through his air before we got to the wreck, including his back-mounted AL13 pony....that he had 4 of us help him mount because he had never used it. He walked me through most of his gear and why his instructor/LDS said it was so superior in every way. He was a mess. He dives in your area. I'm sure he's not the only one. I'm not saying you're directly and personally responsible, but it's not like there are no divers that get taken to the cleaners and sold on false advertising up there.

 

[flots am]

He went on a wreck dive with us to 92ft (deepest he had been) and blew through his air before we got to the wreck, including his back-mounted AL13 pony....that he had 4 of us help him mount because he had never used it.

That was your mistake all the way around. Since he had never been on the wreck and didn't know how to assemble his equipment, and apparently you didn't either (one person can assemble any pony bracket currently sold) you should have said "Sorry, this isn't a good dive for you" and left him on the boat.

That's not mean, it's kind and safer.

flots.