Primary Long Hose Length: 5' or 7'?

[Jim Lapenta]

"which length would be ideal for my primary in a Hogarthian-style gear configuration modified"

Reading is fundamental.

 

[danvolker]

Like I said, the 7' hose needs a specific gear setup to work. Quoting you: (under either a can light, or under a knife, or under a pocket). None of which is part of 99% of the gear made and used.

The 5' does not need any specific setup (except on short divers). It just goes under the arm and loops around.

You are saying that 99% of the divers I see in Florida on charter boats don't have gear that can accept either a can light, a knife, a pocket, or anything else easy to route with? If so, you are very wrong, indicating you are basing your impressions on a horrible cross section of the diving universe.....or, you really don't understand anything about how to use and configure a long hose---or, the huge WHY that your divers should be breathing off the long hose primary and having a necklace back up.


Even a weight belt can work wonderfully well with a pocket or a knife scabbard on it....and sometimes when I am freediving, I put my can light on a weight belt.

And personally, I prefer having a weight belt to the concept of integrated weights, at least for tropical destinations.
But that is another tangent

 

[beanojones]

"which length would be ideal for my primary in a Hogarthian-style gear configuration modified"

Reading is fundamental.

Read the title of the thread.

---------- Post added June 26th, 2013 at 04:43 PM ----------

You are saying that 99% of the divers I see in Florida on charter boats don't have gear that can accept either a can light, a knife, a pocket, or anything else easy to route with? If so, you are very wrong, indicating you are basing your impressions on a horrible cross section of the diving universe.....or, you really don't understand anything about how to use and configure a long hose---or, the huge WHY that your divers should be breathing off the long hose primary and having a necklace back up.

So what you are saying as long as you set up the gear in way to make a 7' hose work so that it has something to hook on, it works right?

Good, because that's exactly what I said.

I also added that the 5' does not need any special setup, except on smaller divers, so there are some real advantages to using a 5' hose because it is completely portable to any gear setup (assuming a non tiny diver). And I pointed out that the blind loop of the 7' hose can cause problems, because it can.

Watch someone get themselves in to a life threatening situation in a heavy surf entry just because they heard on the internet they should use a 7 foot hose. It really only needs to happen once to make one aware that trying to shoehorn gear setups into a preconceived notion of how things should be is the opposite of thinking.

On the other hand, I use a 5' setup in any and every condition and have never had problems, because it stows and deploys without needing to hook anything, thus it can be stowed and deployed by moat anyone one handed in any conditions, even heavy surf. A 7' cannot.

 

[danvolker]

Read the title of the thread.

---------- Post added June 26th, 2013 at 04:43 PM ----------



So what you are saying as long as you set up the gear in way to make a 7' hose work so that it has something to hook on, it works right?

Good, because that's exactly what I said.

I also added that the 5' does not need any special setup, except on smaller divers, so there are some real advantages to using a 5' hose because it is completely portable to any gear setup (assuming a non tiny diver). And I pointed out that the blind loop of the 7' hose can cause problems, because it can.

Watch someone get themselves in to a life threatening situation in a heavy surf entry just because they heard on the internet they should use a 7 foot hose. It really only needs to happen once to make one aware that trying to shoehorn gear setups into a preconceived notion of how things should be is the opposite of thinking.

On the other hand, I use a 5' setup in any and every condition and have never had problems, because it stows and deploys without needing to hook anything, thus it can be stowed and deployed by moat anyone one handed in any conditions, even heavy surf. A 7' cannot.

This would translate into divers "hearing" from you that 5 foot hose lengths are better.... Many of us feel the 7 foot hose routed under a can or a knife or a pocket is an absolute perfect fit, it is precise, easy to manage, and optimal for sharing and swimming. The 5 foot hose can actually flop around more, since it is not routed.

While it may surprise you, we have shore dives in Florida also....and we can have very challenging surf conditions....I have NEVER seen any conditions where the long hose would have caused a problem on an entry or an exit...

I think streamlining should be important to all divers, even "still water" ones.
Gear should be slick, precise, and instructors are at the front line on how this plays out with new divers. This is why the bp/wing has caught on so well in South Florida...the conditions here allow anyone to dive, but there are enough "environmental opportunities" to show almost anyone why a slick BC system( read as bp/wing) is better than a floppy vest version, and why all hoses need precise routing so they will never be caught on a coral bottom, on a snag inside a shipwreck penetrations, or even just dragging in the sand silting as you go.


Just out of curiosity....you are in the "Cruise ship" capital of the worst tourist divers in the world, dive destination, are you not?

 

[beanojones]

This would translate into divers "hearing" from you that 5 foot hose lengths are better.... Many of us feel the 7 foot hose routed under a can or a knife or a pocket is an absolute perfect fit, it is precise, easy to manage, and optimal for sharing and swimming. The 5 foot hose can actually flop around more, since it is not routed.

While it may surprise you, we have shore dives in Florida also....and we can have very challenging surf conditions....I have NEVER seen any conditions where the long hose would have caused a problem on an entry or an exit...

(written with a smile, but serious nonetheless )

It should not just translate as that, but actually mean that, since that is, in part, what We are saying. (We are also switching to the first person plural to give Our statements more weight, as well.)

If you, personally, have never seen someone have problems caused by a 7' hose, then you have not. We have. We think seeing someone in real trouble, and not being open to changing Our thinking about gear setups is being slightly thick, and dogmatic. We are many things, including iconoclastic, but We are not even slightly thick, nor are we even slightly dogmatic. Nor do We, on the other hand, change things, or challenge accepted wisdom, lightly. We see problems, We look for causes, We try different methods. That's what We do. It may not be what others do. It certainly sounds like many are trying fit a certain hose length (very useful for some situations) into being the default hose length for all situations.

Look, the title of the thread is 5' or 7'?. Doesn't it make sense to hear the reasons why someone might actually choose one or the other? We know there are lots of people who will say God has decreed only the 7' length and neck bungies holy (We too passed through that indoctrination long ago, verily did We see its benefits), and only heathens, inexperienced divers, badly trained divers, or stupid people think otherwise. But We are none of those things, and We no longer find the 7' length holy, and We have given reasons why. Nor do We find the 5' hose length holy, just more useful than a 7' in some circumstances. We are not decreeing hose length; We are discussing hose length. Others seem to be decreeing hose length. We get it, yours is longer!

The point of a 7' hose is to line up divers in restrictions, right? And that length does have real safety considerations, both positive and negative. Dogmatically staying attached to the hose as being only 7' in other circumstances, where the main rationale for using that length does not exist, is just that, dogmatically staying attached to a 7' hose length. Yeah verily there might be ways to force it to work in some situations, and even good reasons for forcing it to work in some situations. But a 7' hose is not passed down by God, just arrived at by thinking about things, and experiencing things.

But others to be saying there are no situations in which a 7' hose is not ideal. And that it just not thinking about things, rather it is just being religious about them, in Our opinion.

This discussion is one of the reasons why so many of Us like sidemount, because God has not yet spoken about it, so people talk about ideas, and reasons, and experienced, instead of traditions and fixed patterns of behavior.

 

[danvolker]

(written with a smile, but serious nonetheless

It should not just translate as that, since that is what We are saying. (We are also switching to the first person plural to give Our statements more weight, as well.)

If you, personally, have never seen someone have problems caused by a 7' hose, then you have not. We have. We think seeing someone in real trouble, and not being open to changing one's thinking about gear setups is being slightly thick. We are many things, including iconoclastic, but We are not even slightly thick. Nor do We change things, or challenge accepted wisdom lightly. We see problems, We look for causes, We try different methods. That's what We do. It may not be what you do. It certainly sounds like many are trying fit a certain hose length (very useful for some situations) into being the default hose length for all situations.

Look, the title of the thread is 5' or 7'?. Doesn't it make sense to hear the reasons why someone might actually choose one or the other? We know there are lots of people who will say God has decreed the 7' length holy (We too passed through that indoctrination), and only heathens, inexperienced divers, badly trained divers, or stupid people think otherwise. But We are none of those things, and We do not find the 7' length holy, and We have given reasons why. Nor do We find the 5' hose length holy, just more useful than a 7' in some circumstances. We are not decreeing hose length; We are discussing hose length.

The point of a 7' hose is to line up divers in restrictions, right? And that length does have real safety considerations, both positive and negative. Dogmatically staying attached to the hose being 7' in other circumstances where the main rationale for using that length does not exist is just that, dogmatically staying attached to a 7' hose length. Yes there might be ways to force it to work in some situations, and even good reasons for forcing it to work in some situations.

But you seem to be saying there are no situations in which a 7' hose is not ideal. And that it just not thinking about things, in Our opinion.

Actually I am saying that a 7 foot hose fits more precisely on me and on Sandra and on Bill and on pretty much every buddy I have ever dove with....the 5 foot length without routing is sloppier...

Maybe for divers that like sloppy vest style BC's , the sloppiness of a non-routed hose does not feel sloppy ??

I don't do dogma in DIR...I helped in the original telling and even in some of the ideas of it.
I modify out of what some think is DIR gospel---I use freedive fins on reef dives or wrecks with huge swim areas inside, but will change to Jet fins for real exploration grade penetrations with tight overheads.

If I liked a 5 foot hose, believe me, I would use a 5 foot hose.

What I do like is the comfort in swimming side by side with a low on air buddy, using a 7 foot hose...it is pretty awesome. We can both use our normal trim and even a normal buddy formation to swim in.
Shorten the hose by two feet, and while it is still easy, there is less luxury ( if that makes any sense), and the formation part get's compromised--to a degree, you have to swim where the hose lets you--it changes what would be ideal.....

 

[beanojones]

What I do like is the comfort in swimming side by side with a low on air buddy, using a 7 foot hose...it is pretty awesome. We can both use our normal trim and even a normal buddy formation to swim in.
Shorten the hose by two feet, and while it is still easy, there is less luxury ( if that makes any sense), and the formation part get's compromised--to a degree, you have to swim where the hose lets you--it changes what would be ideal.....

Hearing that makes me have to qualify what I say in a big way, because I use 45 or 120 swivels on my 5 footer. IME, swivels are like adding a foot or two feet in that the swivel allows the sharee to be on the left or the right, or dead in front without 'the loop' that non-swiveled hoses can get in them.

I simply cannot handle the way second stages pull unless they have swivels (45 or 120 for neck loops, 90 or 120 for underarm), regardless of the hose routing (over the shoulder, neck Loops, underarm all work better with swivels) and don't like the big loop that results on the shoulder without swivels for neck looped regs, in the same way I hate standard over the shoulder regs in general.

If I could make 7 footers work, I might want to use them, because there are times when someone has my primary in when I am basically nowhere near them, and two more feet is two more feet. But the swivel makes it not necessary, so I don't have to make it work.

Semi- Off topic, and personal note: I don't use a 7 footer because I do not need one, but also it would be hard to use them for me personally for two yet unsaid reasons:
1. I cannot be sure of the BCD I am using because I do teach in jackets, and in sidemount BCDs setups both, and
2. People have to be able to use my regs, including intro divers, and I have yet to have anyone be able to handle a 7 footer without fighting with it for a few dives, and people can handle 5 footers with no problem. Watching them try to re-loop it after deploying it is always fun but, they have no problems using it.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
What I do like is the comfort in swimming side by side with a low on air buddy, using a 7 foot hose...it is pretty awesome. We can both use our normal trim and even a normal buddy formation to swim in.
. . .

So long as both divers feel the same way about continuing the dive in this way. I was diving with a group in Cozumel, and one diver got low on air, so the DM handed her his primary on the 7-foot hose with the idea that she could swim along for a little while rather than surface immediately. She made it clear she did NOT want to continue the dive that way--got quite angry with the DM. If one dives with like-minded buddies, a 7-foot hose can be useful in this way; otherwise, not so much.

 

[GrumpyOldGuy]

FWIW: I brought a 5' hose thinking I don't cave dive, don't have a can light and there was no reason for the extra length. I used it about 3 times,, at 5-11 / 215lbs its a bit tight and pulls. Maybe it cause I am short for my weight. The longer hoses (6 & 7) are more comfortable. Someday I might buy 90 elbow to salvage the 5' hose, but is was a mistake on my part.

 

[TSandM]

5' hoses only work well on small-framed people, and I've seen very few people six feet tall who meet my definition of small-framed.

I am 5'4" and 120 lbs, and use a 7' hose on all my setups, INCLUDING my single tank rig in the tropics, when I am NOT using a canister light. Here is a picture of me diving a 7' hose in Maui a couple of months ago -- the big loop of hose is NOT the seven-footer. It's my backup reg, which was on too long a hose, because I was using a cobbled-together setup that we normally reserve for student use, since I needed a yoke first stage.

I have never had problems with a 7' hose coming loose unnoticed and creating problems. I HAVE had them come out of my waistband and need to be tucked back, but that's only when I haven't tightened my waist band enough.