Holding a panicked diver down

[dumpsterDiver]

I think so too ... even a panicked diver will accept a reg shoved in their face if they need air badly enough. The problem with a diver who has full lungs and isn't exhaling is that their need to breathe hasn't kicked in yet, and so getting to the surface is their ultimate priority. Panic is an instinctive response ... so is breathing. If the need to breathe is the priority, they'll do whatever it takes to satisfy the need. Make the "whatever it takes" as visible and easy as possible.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Actually... my one and only true underwater rescue involved a victim who repeatedly refused my regulator, she just was thrashing around, I was her DM on a dive to 80, first diver after cert and we were sinking down on a drift dive. She was about 10 feet below me and seemed to be doing fine on descent.............................. When we got to 60-65 feet maybe, I saw her move her head side to side in a searching type motion. We had only one other dive in our group. So when I saw her looking, I immediately swam to her and touched her shoulder, within a few seconds... she turned looked at me and just spit her reg out in my face. I was completely confused, but since his was the initial descent and I was just sinking negatively, butt first, I was totally rested...................... I immediately just stuck my primary to her mouth. Instantly, instinctively and without any thought..... she spit it... and started thrashing. I repeated with the same result one or two more times, as we continued to sink. I was completely baffled and now freaked out....................... I had no idea what to do, so I went on instinct. I grabbed the back of her head with one hand, and forcibly held the reg to her lips with the other, a just floored the purge button...and started kicking like hell for the surface....I could not see her face, I had no idea if she was breathing... just a huge stream of bubbles in her face........................ After a while of hard swimming, it was then that I realized a mistake...I was holding MY breath. I was so concerned with her, that I never thought to put my octopus in and I guess my freediving instincts took over. I was reminded of my error by an over full feeling in my lungs and some discomfort, so I exhaled, and very quickly shoved a reg in my mouth and kept swimming hard. We reached the surface quickly and the boat came right back. When we got to the surface, I hit her inflator button and NOTHING, she was now still, but seemed conscious.... The sea conditions werwe rough 4-6, choppy............... As we loaded her onto the platform, I turned on her tank valve.. it had been completely off!.. She said she was descending and it got hard to breath then nothing and she never signaled and just thought that it was her imagination, because all the gear was brand new...so she did nothing until she was in full panic mode..unable to accept a regulator......not everyone who really needs it will grab a regulator... even well trained people with tons of experience who should have a regulator in their mouth may not grab one in an emergency.. (e.g.. me)!!!
..

 

[raftingtigger]

......not everyone who really needs it will grab a regulator...
..

I had a recent incident where we (2 certified divers) were doing an alt air drill at 15'. My buddy got a mouthful of water when they tried to put their primary back in and immediately headed for the surface. I grabbed them and stuffed the regulator in their face repeatedly while slowing them down. They never accepted the regulator that was offered. On the surface my buddy said they had inhaled water and 'couldn't use the regulator' but knew it was being offered. Of course we discussed purge buttons later, but their diving day was over - coughing for the next several hours.

So I agree with dumpsterDiver, not everyone given a working regulator will accept it.

 

[nimoh]

Personally, I would never hold a panicked diver down, I think there is too much potential for my actions to make things worse. I would do what I can at depth, offering a reg if needed, or whatever, but once they take off for the surface, they are on their own. I would end my dive immediately, do a proper ascent (skipping or cutting short safety stops, but meeting deco obligations), meet them on the surface and provide any assistance I can.

Something very different, if I am diving with a new diver and they seem to be drifting upwards but relaxed, I would signal them to descend, and if they didn't, or struggled, I may get a hold of them while looking them in the eye and drag them down a bit if they were receptive to it.

 

[ajduplessis]

I am no DM or instructor. IMO holding someone down or slowing their ascent is not the solution. Adding additional "stress/resistance" to an already panic diver is looking for trouble. A firm grip to get their attention and eye contact does wonders for the avarage intelligent and half trained divers. If this does not help (full blown panic) then they need to find out the hard way. Full blown panic while under "restraint" is dangerous for everyone involved. If they end with a lung over expansion injury or DCS hit, then so be it.

I have seen students "mug" and instructor while paniced and it not pretty and very dangerous. Idiots should be removed from the gene pool. They tend to do this on their own, let them be!

 

[Diver0001]

Idiots should be removed from the gene pool. They tend to do this on their own, let them be!

I can safely say that this is an opinion not shared by any conscientious dive instructor, buddy or empathic human being. I would seriously consider reflecting on that, if I were you.

As for a firm grip and eye contact, that often does work, especially if you're on top of things early. However, if a diver reaches the point where they completely short-circuit then no amount of eye contact or firm gripping is going to snap them out of it. People in full blown panic have the rational thinking ability of a rabbit being chased by a cougar. They just bolt out of instinct.

R..

 

[ajduplessis]

... of you have talked about a diver dying because a professional held him down. I guess it may have happened, but I haven't seen it and would like someone to give a link to it. If it does happen, it is exceedingly rare....

The link question would be pointing to a murder/manslaughter case, thats why you will not find any.

"I tried to safe his life judge, but unfortunately he drown in the process because of my actions. I plead not guilty!!!!"

 

[Tigerman]

The link question would be pointing to a murder/manslaughter case, thats why you will not find any.

"I tried to safe his life judge, but unfortunately he drown in the process because of my actions. I plead not guilty!!!!"

I think "I decided NOT to try helping my buddy contrary to my training" stands a lot bigger chance of being convicted tbh..

 

[ajduplessis]

Deleted

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I am no DM or instructor. IMO holding someone down or slowing their ascent is not the solution. Adding additional "stress/resistance" to an already panic diver is looking for trouble. A firm grip to get their attention and eye contact does wonders for the avarage intelligent and half trained divers. If this does not help (full blown panic) then they need to find out the hard way. Full blown panic while under "restraint" is dangerous for everyone involved. If they end with a lung over expansion injury or DCS hit, then so be it.

I have seen students "mug" and instructor while paniced and it not pretty and very dangerous. Idiots should be removed from the gene pool. They tend to do this on their own, let them be!

I'll say this without hesitation ... I'd willingly put my life on the line if I thought doing so would reduce the risk of one of my students ending up dead. Panic isn't the sign of an idiot ... it's the sign of someone being faced with a problem they aren't equipped to deal with. By definition, instructors are far more equipped than students to deal with it. Sometimes you're faced with a choice between two potentially bad options ... and have a split second to decide which course of action has the best chance of a happy outcome. Acting on that choice is always better than not acting ... and it's part of what you signed up for when you chose to become an instructor.

Anyone with a "let 'em die" attitude should not consider becoming an instructor ... because what that person doesn't understand is that having a student die while under your care is your worst nightmare, and not just from a liability perspective ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ajduplessis]

I think "I decided NOT to try helping my buddy contrary to my training" stands a lot bigger chance of being convicted tbh..

I don't know of any training that states hold the panic diver down. The potential to drown someone is a reality.

---------- Post added March 25th, 2013 at 08:09 PM ----------

I'll say this without hesitation ... I'd willingly put my life on the line if I thought doing so would reduce the risk of one of my students ending up dead. Panic isn't the sign of an idiot ... it's the sign of someone being faced with a problem they aren't equipped to deal with. By definition, instructors are far more equipped than students to deal with it. Sometimes you're faced with a choice between two potentially bad options ... and have a split second to decide which course of action has the best chance of a happy outcome. Acting on that choice is always better than not acting ... and it's part of what you signed up for when you chose to become an instructor.

Anyone with a "let 'em die" attitude should not consider becoming an instructor ... because what that person doesn't understand is that having a student die while under your care is your worst nightmare, and not just from a liability perspective ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)[/QUOTE

that's why i am not an instructor.

Quote "it's the sign of someone being faced with a problem they aren't equipped to deal with." Question: Is the instructor then at fault????