Ice diving and drysuit buoyancy

[Jim Lapenta]

It does to be done safely. That's why in some cases it is considered technical diving as opposed to recreational. Think about diving in a cave with people walking above you that you can see. They can see you. And know that if you do come off the tether or have some other kind of serious problem you can be staring right into each others eyes as you die if you are not able to get back to the hole. No way you are going to claw or dig your way through the ice. And no way for them to get to you in time. They can't just bust through with hammers. They'll fall in and drown or go into hypothermia. They have to somehow get you back to the hole before you run out of air. Or you have to to get yourself back there.

Although if you have really strong people on the tether and the ice is not broken up and full of ridges, you can get inverted with your fins on the ice. Add some air to the suit or bc and have them pull really hard. Waterksiing, upside down, under the ice. But it's best to plan it that way. Giving pulls for an emergency just to get a good pull so you can ski is a good way to piss tenders off.

 

[Hawkwood]

We treat it very seriously when we teach it.

The students, and we, have to be confident in their skills with buoyancy, and with a dry suit, before they take the class with us.

Students have to deal with the free flow as a buddy team.

Due to the conditions, we have at least two instructional staff (many times there are three of us) in the water with the buddy pair, each of which carry redundant air.

Between the buddy work underwater and the tendering work on the surface, the students have to learn to work as a team.

 

[rjack321]

I would not have gone yanking on the rope to get dagged back to the hole. 25ft away, shut down the offending reg and switch to the redundant source. No amount of venting is going to slow down those overeager pullers on the surface.

 

[Hawkwood]

... No amount of venting is going to slow down those overeager pullers on the surface.

Very good point!

 

[oldflounder]

It sure seems that ice diving ought to be viewed as more serious than it is -- it seems to me that a combination of dive conditions very conducive to freeflow AND an overhead environment should REQUIRE redundancy and significant training.

I don't know of anyone that doesn't view ice diving as serious. A good portion of learning to ice dive is getting the proper thermal protection and the proper scuba unit set-up. There are additional areas of training necessary such as avoiding stirring up the silt, dealing with freeflows, learning communication skills diver/tender, avoiding rapid ascents, but once you get past all that and get down to your depth, a dive is a dive. The skills are the same. From what I understand a lot of those that get the card for recreational purposes never go any further with it. To do it right and by the book you need a minimum of 5 people [2 divers, 2 tenders and a safety diver.] It is very hard to get that many people together for a frigid afternoon [3-4 hours] out on the ice. Many of those that become actively involved in ice diving on a regular basis are Fire/Police search/recovery types, vehicle-through-the-ice recovery personnel, scientific divers, etc. I imagine they all get extensive further training and practice.

As to the redundancy issue I think a pony at hand is mandatory. Most of the freeflows I have experienced have involved knobs and connections being fully encased in a 1/4" layer of ice while underwater. I have been unable to shut off valves or unhook freeflowing bcds. It sounds good on paper but these fixes don't always work in the real world. A successful ice diver has learned to acquire the proper gear to minimize these issues from occurring.

As a final note - just out of curiosity - what does it cost to become a significantly-trained cave diver? I bet it's a lot. Do all new cave divers come out of training significantly-trained. I am sorry if I sound like a wise-ass but it I don't know what the training involves or what the answer is.

 

[shoredivr]

Agreed on how quickly the ball of ice that forms around the valve or inflator hose can occur.

 

[Glenn08]

If you expect a surface tender to rescue you, should you be under the ice in the first place? We drop anchors tethered to the ice above, and work our own lines. I used twin 50's, valves down, with primary and back-up regulators, and a ProSeal (Viking sport) suit. When you have equalized for squeeze, you should be neutral. I use 2 lbs ankle weights, each leg. Would you cavern or cave dive with a surface tender ?

 

[TSandM]

I guess it wasn't clear to me that the guy with the freeflow had a pony bottle. He needed something, because his buddy just bugged out . . .

I don't know about all cave training, but certainly, by the time I finished Fundies and Cave 1, yes, I would say I was significantly trained. By that, I mean that I had repeatedly demonstrated the ability to perform valve shutdowns and share gas without losing buoyancy, trim, position or awareness, and I had gone through a whole variety of emergency scenarios of varying complexity, frequently cascading, and had to show that I could keep my head about me and keep managing situations in a rational and appropriate way.

 

[oldflounder]

I was significantly trained. By that, I mean that I had repeatedly demonstrated the ability to perform valve shutdowns and share gas without losing buoyancy, trim, position or awareness, and I had gone through a whole variety of emergency scenarios of varying complexity, frequently cascading, and had to show that I could keep my head about me and keep managing situations in a rational and appropriate way.

If we keep this discussion just at the basic amount of training needed to get the c-card then cave training is much more complicated and intensive than ice dive training. It sounds like a lot of the training involves self rescue, controlling panic, silt management and dealing with problems that basic OW and AOW don't touch. You and your buddy may be far into a cave and have no one to rely on but yourself. The way ice diving is taught around here is with a group of 5-6 minimum participating. The buddy teams dive on 100' tethers and are never any further from the hole than that. Help is always at hand if an emergency arises. The underwater part of the dive is pretty much just a regular dive - the skills you already know are the ones you need for dealing with normal conditions as you're diving [buoyancy skills, gas management, situational awareness, etc.] The bulk of the training involves choosing the proper thermal protection and the proper gear that will function well in the figid water, steps to take when entering the water to prevent freeflows, communication between the surface and the diver, the mechanics of it [how to cut the hole, types of rope to use, keeping the area around the hole free of slip, trip, fall hazards, etc.] and so on. As I understand it, some classes tie both divers to one tether, others give each diver their own tender [sometimes the divers hold a jon line between them.] Either way, when one comes out they both come out.

This is the way I see the basic ice dive training. There may be instructors out there that give a much more intensive training.

Basic Ice diving may swing a little more more into the technical territory than the recreational because of the overhead and gear needed but it is not comparable to technical diving as regards that such as cave, deep gas mixing, deep wreck penetration, etc.

I repeat that I am only talking about basic recreational ice diving - not professional ice diving that gets much more complicated I'm sure.

 

[soltari675]

I think the only thing that keeps ice diving from being considered technical is the surface support and the other divers ready to jump in and save you. Otherwise, you're in close to the same conditions. What makes it more dangerous than your everyday recreational is no direct access to the surface, and increased chances of problems that require additional equipment to compensate for, like free flow. Having done the ice diving course though, I believe I am well trained for that type of diving. My instructor however, took it very serious and he was very good and detailed.

To keep with the original purpose of the thread, one thing you can try to vent air faster is to curl into a ball. It forces air out at the fastest rate, and if severe enough, may pop a seal enough to vent air out briefly. I do use my BC for buoyancy when I dive, but you do want some air in your suit, especially when ice diving, or you will be uncomfortable. The undergarments and the layer of air is what keeps you warm. Remember the people on the surface don't know why you called for help, so they're going to pull you out the fastest rate safely possible. The idea is if it were a real emergency, a bumped head or a few scrapes is much better than the alternative if they had hesitated.