Not everyone thinks cave diving is the pinnacle of SCUBA!

[lv2dive]

1. You have no clue what I don't know or know.

2. I'll say it again. You have no power to arrest, detain, or police a public place. You have no more rights to touch me in a cave than you do in a shopping mall. Touch me in a cave and I will be signing a complaint with the authorities because I will have defended myself.

I know what anyone doesn't know, if they haven't taken any sort of cave class. One example might be what to think about when purchasing tanks: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...n-about-purchasing-two-tanks.html#post6654041

Good luck with getting charges to stick, in Gilchrist county anyway. The last time an OW diver was escorted out and pressed charges, the judge threw the case out. I'm guessing they see things a little differently in cave country.

 

[fnfalman]

Great, I hear ya.

But what are you going to do about it if an untrained cave diver were to go into the cave?

Once again, are you going to manhandle them? Drag them out against their will? Cause some sort of underwater altercations (yeah, that'd definitely boost up Divers Safety)?

Look - no one is saying training is going to solve all the problems of the world. BUT... it is a good bet that anyone who goes through cave training will be more prepared to go into caves, safely, than they would have if they had not.

I've been in Ginnie when I've had to get on the line in the first 300 feet of the cave. Believe me - it is NOT easy to crap out the viz in that area of the cave. In fact, I wouldn't believe it if I wasn't there. I'm sure it cleared fairly quickly, but it was rather disconcerting for a moment. Not in the sense that I was concerned; I knew exactly where I was, but I just would have never expected Ginnie vis to go down like that. The point is, even in a high flow cave, careless form can turn visibility in an instant. In a low flow cave, that kind of a mess would have taken *hours* to settle.

You guys talking with such bravado about your pig stickers and book training don't know what you don't know - and that includes that you are not just risking your own lives when you go in a cave without training. You are risking the lives of every person already in the cave, and every person who may follow you in. No, training isn't perfect. It's not going to guarantee perfect form, or a perfect reaction to every situation. But at least it will give you a minimal understanding of non-silting kicks and give you exposure to situations designed to simulate problems that you may encounter in a cave... So, if your primary light goes out - instead of losing buoyancy and flailing about while trying to find your backup and get it deployed in the dark - it's a complete non-event to pull out your backup and store your primary so that it won't snag anything on the way out. And you can do that without losing control of your buoyancy and/or losing/blinding your buddy. You will learn how to enter the cave without tearing up everyone else's line that has already been run... a book can't teach you that.

But going into a cave without training - if I'm there, you are putting me at risk, every time. What do I care if I'm not there? You are putting friends of mine at risk. So go ahead, call me elitist. Call me whatever you want to, I don't really care. If you want to go in a cave, just get the training. I am not saying I am better than you, all I am saying is that I have training appropriate for the environment. I don't see how that is elitism, personally.

---------- Post added February 25th, 2013 at 03:23 PM ----------

So when you are cave diving and all of your self taught skills have failed and you come at me for help, can I then press reckless endangerment charges?

You're not obligated to help. Just back away and let them die.

---------- Post added February 25th, 2013 at 03:29 PM ----------

 

[Akroedge540]

You're not obligated to help. Just back away and let them die.

No I'm not, however, when they die and block the exit, silt up the cave, or break my line they risk my life and the others lives in the cave. If you want to go dive In a cave without training, go ahead it truly is your choice. IMHO it's a choice about as intelligent as playing Russian Roulette with a semi automatic pistol.

 

[danvolker]

What do you do when others refused or rebuked your help? When is it right for you to manhandle others underwater for their own safety when they're not in panic mode?

If you saw the AWFUL VIDEO I linked a few posts ago....this was a diver I considered to be severely at risk, even though in only 15 feet of water. He was not in immediate danger, but with zero awareness of anything going on around him, a fatal mishap could have occurred at any time. I chose to end my macro dive--shooting macro video of nudibranchs for Sandra and SFDJ...and instead, just follow the guy in case he had a catastrophic problem. I did in fact, try to get his attention, and you can see this in one point in the video where I got in his face, but he refused to even see me....Since he could not be communicated with, I just kept watching, just in case....Ultimately I exited the water when he did, and then had a polite conversation with him, where I attempted to convince him that he needed to get the help of a good instructor with his gear and trim...and I do think I succeeded with this.

What would you have done?

 

[chillyinCanada]

I'd have stuck you with my 6" pig sticker for following me around and taking my picture in that middle-aged lecherous way.

Just kidding. I believe I would have tried to engage in conversation too, in hopes of being able to encourage the extra training as you did. But I did notice that you didn't haul him out of the water in the first place.

Back to the video, I also enjoyed the part where awful was the one looking after the dive float.

 

[Aquabot]

If you saw the AWFUL VIDEO I linked a few posts ago....this was a diver I considered to be severely at risk, even though in only 15 feet of water. He was not in immediate danger, but with zero awareness of anything going on around him, a fatal mishap could have occurred at any time. I chose to end my macro dive--shooting macro video of nudibranchs for Sandra and SFDJ...and instead, just follow the guy in case he had a catastrophic problem. I did in fact, try to get his attention, and you can see this in one point in the video where I got in his face, but he refused to even see me....Since he could not be communicated with, I just kept watching, just in case....Ultimately I exited the water when he did, and then had a polite conversation with him, where I attempted to convince him that he needed to get the help of a good instructor with his gear and trim...and I do think I succeeded with this.

What would you have done?

Sounds like you did the right thing to me.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 2

 

[danvolker]

I'd have stuck you with my 6" pig sticker for following me around and taking my picture in that middle-aged lecherous way.

Just kidding. I believe I would have tried to engage in conversation too, in hopes of being able to encourage the extra training as you did. But I did notice that you didn't haul him out of the water in the first place.

Back to the video, I also enjoyed the part where awful was the one looking after the dive float.

Your right,...this was not a cave, and there was no immediate danger....and even if he killed 100 nudibranchs, it is not like they are a protected species....in any event, I did not feel it "appropriate" to touch him or try to "force" any behaviors....However, had he had an accident and died because I had left and gone on my way shooting macro, I would have felt like I was complicit in his death....so I had no choice but to kill my own dive, and play baby-sitter.
This actually leaves the DIR versus solo debate, or even the Pro Wrestling level show of the Chatterton thread.....this is not really a Diving issue so much as it is going to be a decision you make based on the system of Morality you subscribe to..... I try to follow the system created by Kant , and that may explain to some why I may get so extreme about "some" issues. I mention this to help explain that my extremism in the Chatterton thread had nothing to do with DIR or GUE issues, and everything to do with a system I use to control my daily actions.

 

[Jax]

This thread has become utterly asinine. We have wanna be combat divers, self trained cave divers calling others idiots, stupid ass trolls, and more chest beating then a gorilla put at the zoo. Just damn stupid.

Half the folks in here are simply trolling to stir ****. If not they truly are bigger douche canoes then they are presenting themselves to be.

"Rambo ain't got nothin on me, I am the real deal." Congratulations. I teach people how to kill people for a living. You seem dead set on killing someone. Maybe you should come to me for training.

And some are punctuating their stupidity with certainty.

 

[divad]

The music is hilarious. Que triste.

 

[Paladin]

You're 200 feet back in the cave, kicking along and enjoying the scenery. Looking at your SPG you decide it's time to turn around and head out. But when you turn around you realize that the flutter kick you were taught in your OW class kicked up the silt behind you ... and your way out looks like an opaque wall. Having not been trained, it never occurs to you to zero the line before swimming into that mess. And having never experienced anything like it before you don't realize just how it'll be until you suddenly can't see a thing. Completely blind, you lose your direction. You bounce off the walls a few times, making the soup even thicker, and realize that you don't know whether you're going into or out of the cave anymore. You can't see your gauge, but you know that the single tank you're wearing has to be getting low. Furthermore, all this stress is causing you to breathe heavier than normal. There's no option to surface. There's nobody to help you. You don't know what to do.

How calm do you think you're going to be when it suddenly occurs to you that unless by some miracle someone comes along to help you, you're going to die here?

Panic is the body's natural response to being faced with a problem you don't know how to resolve. It's an instinct we're all born with. On land, it provides a last-resort method of keeping us alive. In the water, it's a death sentence.

I can pretty much guarantee you that every untrained cave diver (and most trained ones) who ever died in a cave was in a state of panic as they sucked that last breath out of their tank ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I can guarantee it. About 35 years ago, that was me, though I was not technically lost. I was stuck. If my buddy had not found me, I would not be here to cause so much trouble on SB! That's why you'll never again find me far back in a cave. I liked Ginnie's Ballroom, but it wasn't tight and I could see the light from the entrance at all times. I admit I am curious about swimming (once) from Devi's Eye to the Ear under expert supervision (Like that's gonna happen!) but that would be the limit. Chances are, if it got too tight, I would be signalling to go back the way we'd come.