Diver Training: How much is enough?

[endurodog]

I have to agree with water pirate. The story hits the nail on the head. as guns go i have more of a chance of survivning a long term shooter than a beginner because the long time shooter will shoot once and drop me the beginner will empty the clip into me. It is too easy for those of us who cant remember what ow was like to judge beginners using ourselves as a standard..

This is a wrong statement about shooting. The double tap, 2 shots spaced across the center mass of the body in a quick but controled manner is the way that indepth combat shooting is taught. If those 2 shots are ineffective then 1 to the head or pelvic girdle. The rules get a little more involved for multiple threats. I would take getting shot at by an amature any time over someone properly trained.

While shooting is not the point of this thread throught process is. The standards at what someone is being taught are being mis-stated in the same way.

Water Pirate~ stating that things need to change becasue training is horrible and there are horrible divers out there. What is the proof that divers are being trained so poorly these days? Accident rates, law suits,? There is no evidence what so ever that they have gone up, to the contray they have come down (there are those that argue that these rates are incorrect but can provide no proof to the contrary). So many people get on the net and like to claim how horrible all these divers are, how horrible the training has become, it's easy to do in cyber dive world.

Bash a way on this now, I know one that will for sure. But I have seen the most intelligent post in this thread by Peter Guy "I give up". I'm out too.

 

[DCBC]

The standards were set, and met by all in attendance. Some will go on to be better, others will get hurt, some will die, some will stop all together.

Does that mean you blindly accept the Standard without question; or do you strive to make it better? Do you support change where you believe it necessary; or do you advocate rolling-over and accepting that which may pose a threat to the individual and Society?

---------- Post added January 1st, 2013 at 01:22 AM ----------

...Not every diver aspires to independently navigate open ocean dives. Doesn't necessarily make them bad divers. Limited in a way, but if that's how they choose to dive, so be it.

Unless of course the diver was trained for these conditions and the 'deliverable' of the certification level he paid for was for him to be able to dive independently.

---------- Post added January 1st, 2013 at 01:34 AM ----------

The agency's are the only ones who can clean up their own messes/business model, and they IMHO will never get there. which is why we continue to see basic OW graduates who should not be snorkeling unsupervised. ...That is why I advocate the mentorship/ or club approach to bring students along in a responsible manner after they get started, but most will not. Darwin at work I'm afraid.

I agree Eric. That is something else that is often lost with the commercialism of diving instruction.


It seems that some people believe that a 'minimal training' approach is preferred to a more comprehensive one. For me, I see the value of an additional 25 or 30 hours of SCUBA training to increase diver competence and confidence.

Driving has been used as an example. When I received my driver's license, I was an incompetent driver. This resulted in me writing-off the family car while driving on a wet road and injuring a friend who was in the back seat. It could have been avoided if the 'Driver Standards' were harder to achieve. I've known many friends (as well as my three sons) who have had similar experiences.

If asked today, I wouldn't advocate a new driver to drive around Rome, or on wet roads unless it has been ascertained that it's safe for them to do so. Why would I? I acknowledge that where I live, snow and ice pose a greater hazard than rain or traffic. With different geographic conditions and population densities, what is required to drive safely changes. What a driver 'needs to know' will also change. Should one 'minimal Standard' be set for Driver's Worldwide? I don't think that this is in the best interest of anyone. I fail to see how anyone can think otherwise...

---------- Post added January 1st, 2013 at 02:22 AM ----------

I give up.

The case for the prosecution rests.

---------- Post added January 1st, 2013 at 03:03 AM ----------

I would take getting shot at by an amature any time over someone properly trained.

And yet I would rather depend upon a competent Buddy than an incompetent one...

... stating that things need to change becasue training is horrible and there are horrible divers out there. What is the proof that divers are being trained so poorly these days? Accident rates, law suits,? There is no evidence what so ever that they have gone up, to the contray they have come down (there are those that argue that these rates are incorrect but can provide no proof to the contrary). So many people get on the net and like to claim how horrible all these divers are, how horrible the training has become, it's easy to do in cyber dive world.

When a Court determines (in three separate incidents) that the training received by a Diver is insufficient. I for one feel that this is an indication that Diver Training may be inadequate (for some environments). To me that's all the proof anyone needs to pose the question: "Is Diver Training heading in the right direction?" Being indignant when no harm is intended isn't a prudent approach in any discussion.

 

[The Chairman]

I give up.

I don't blame you. While some will erroneously claim victory in this, you have found that it's impossible to reason with unreasonable people. My goal in this discussion has never been to change the minds of the POV (Point of View) Warriors who have an agenda to prosecute. Rather, it has always been to show the subsequent readers that there are indeed two sides to this coin and that the head makes a lot more sense than the tail. Their argumentum per deluvium is only able to justify their antiquated beliefs about training to each other. Most everybody else is rolling their eyes and shaking their head in the same manner you are.

 

[waterpirate]

The point about accident rates going down, I would credit to DM'S, dive operators, and civilians willing to intervene pre-dive, or go off the stern in a flash to do a surface rescue/retreival.

When we talk about the interpretation of standards the pre-requsites may be what is to blame. For a OW punter we assume that anyone applying will allready be comfortable in the water and be a strong swimmer. For tactical shooting we assume that the punter is allready proficient with their weapon and familiar with it's operation.

Those two points are the first weak links in the chain from which we hang the rest of our education/experiance. I also believe that as a whole the system works, we just have a tendancy to see the really bad punters because they stand out from the majority of the herd that performs well at their level.

I do not claim to have any answers, just observations of the world around me. In my world we still pull people aside and say " look skippy " I do not know where you picked that up, but it does not float here. Again gentle guidance and mentorship around you will help insulate you and your band of Pirates from having to fill out paperwork add nauseam after an incident. I certainly hope that people do not feel as though I am the antagonist here? I strive to post without emotion, just facts, opinions, and observations.
Eric

 

[DCBC]

...While some will erroneously claim victory in this, you have found that it's impossible to reason with unreasonable people. My goal in this discussion has never been to change the minds of the POV (Point of View) Warriors who have an agenda to prosecute. Rather, it has always been to show the subsequent readers that there are indeed two sides to this coin and that the head makes a lot more sense than the tail. Their argumentum per deluvium is only able to justify their antiquated beliefs about training to each other. Most everybody else is rolling their eyes and shaking their head in the same manner you are.

There can never be a 'victory' when people die as a result of inadequate training for the conditions in-which they were certified. If you believe that any opinion that conflicts with your own is antiquated, perhaps it's your ability to reason that's in-question and not the validity of the opinion of others.

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't blame you. While some will erroneously claim victory in this, you have found that it's impossible to reason with unreasonable people. My goal in this discussion has never been to change the minds of the POV (Point of View) Warriors who have an agenda to prosecute. Rather, it has always been to show the subsequent readers that there are indeed two sides to this coin and that the head makes a lot more sense than the tail. Their argumentum per deluvium is only able to justify their antiquated beliefs about training to each other. Most everybody else is rolling their eyes and shaking their head in the same manner you are.

True to form you bring nothing to the table, fail to address the issues that have been raised, call people names, accuse them of being god-knows-what and having an "agenda" rather than an opinion.

Please, engage on the issues rather than pretending that you are bringing anything more to the table than your ill-informed assertion that anyone whom disagree with is "out of date."

It is interesting to note that the only entry on the internet for the Latin phrase "argumentum per deluvium" that can be found is your post in Religious Forums where you try to get by with the same name calling tactics and lack of content that you often do here, browbeating anyone who disagrees with you, accusing them of statements they never made, etc. Need I remind you of your recent similar shabby treatment of BoulderJohn (whom I would suspect is an ally on this issue), in another tread?

As far as "claiming victory" at Peter's abdication: no. And more's the pity, since his running off only serves to allow him to be, "saved by the bell," as opposed to prevailing or losing in a test of ideas carried out to its conclusion.

 

[-hh]

...That's not an "observation" but a conclusion. You have yet to show that this is the new "normal".

Since there's multiple instructors with easily twice as much professional experience as you who are not only not asking for 'more data', but are agreeing to the basic point, I see no reason to provide even more evidence.

Besides, we also know that no matter how much evidence is provided, there will still be a few who will persist in denial.

New marketing techniques will be tried out...

Have been tried out, such as what was mentioned by Richard:

"I believe Jim Lapenta (if memory serves) has expressed frustration with rec. diving being marketed as 'safe' without adequate disclosure of how readily it can kill."

​

As Boulderjohn pointed out:

"Dependency upon supervision can be a learned behavior....I have had students tell me that their already-certified friends told them that they only need to learn that stuff during certification. They can forget it after that, they were told, because "in the real world" the DM takes care of everything. For a lot of divers, that "real world" is the only one they know."​

​

The Law of Unintended Consequences rears its ugly head: does the industry even realize that what they're now marketing includes "Dependent Diving"?

​

It would be better if you jumped to the right conclusion at least once in a while.

Moderator, Heal Thyself.

So, one diver makes things "normal"??? While we are all dealing with anecdotal evidence, a single instance does not indicate a trend.

As I said: "Besides, we also know that no matter how much evidence is provided, there will still be a few who will persist in denial.":

Claiming that this a "misperception" is a tough claim when we find affirmations of my observation being expressed right here on Scubaboard and just within the past six months:

"...While I have 20 dives under my belt, I am still a cautious diver....I got a DM for all my dives, it was so inexpensive (plus just more peace of mind for me since it was my first time drift diving)....How much does diving cost in Grand Cayman? And what should I expect to pay for a DM?"

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FYI, before trying to suggest that this was but one isolated case, here's a few more to contemplate:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...412244-not-ready-dive-without-dive-guide.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/basic-scuba-discussions/306995-will-dm-guide-babysitter.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-you-refuse-dive-dm-quide-new-location-7.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ne...s-learned-my-first-dive-divemaster-guide.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/co...-your-group-your-dm-who-should-do-what-2.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...-dm-whats-role-dive-master-6.html#post6470327
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/norcal/311950-seeking-dm-guide-monastery-beach-dive-11-22-a.html
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/florida-diving/216385-what-guide.html

​

And FYI, these links were all from the FIRST PAGE of the search...tip of ye olde iceberg.

(And can this guide also conduct one of those refreshers you mentioned?)

Not and be within standards.

Exactly as I expected.



-hh

​

 

[The Chairman]

There can never be a 'victory' when people die as a result of inadequate training for the conditions in-which they were certified.

Then I'll claim victory as you have yet to produce one singular diver who has died "as a result of inadequate training for the conditions in-which they were certified." Not only have you not produced one, but you have yet to produce multiples as "people" of divers who have been trained to the minimum standards of an agency.

If you believe that any opinion that conflicts with your own is antiquated,

Wow, talk about an over-generalization. I should be used to this by now, but it still makes me smile. There are many, many opinions that I disagree with that I don't consider antiquated. However, you keep banging the "in the day" drum so loudly that it's obvious that you feel the only good training is "old school". That you have not seemed to accept ANY developments of which I and even more so, Boulder John have discussed only re-enforces this conclusion that so many of us have drawn.

perhaps it's your ability to reason that's in-question and not the validity of the opinion of others.

You keep wanting to project your issues on to me. Evolution is a natural course of events. Those who can't understand the reasoning behind the evolution will continue to blindly follow their antiquated ways as being the best and only. They harp on the dangers of changing methodologies so long and loud with absolutely no evidence that most of us see them as merely a version of a modern day Chicken Little. Somehow, in spite of the changes that you refuse to embrace, divers are not dying in droves as you would have us believe.

 

[Thalassamania]

...

Wow, talk about an over-generalization. I should be used to this by now, but it still makes me smile. There are many, many opinions that I disagree with that I don't consider antiquated. However, you keep banging the "in the day" drum so loudly that it's obvious that you feel the only good training is "old school". That you have not seemed to accept ANY developments of which I and even more so, Boulder John have discussed only re-enforces this conclusion that so many of us have drawn.

...

What is fascinating is that the major advance that y'all are trumpeting, training up off the bottom, is as old as the hills and was much more emphasized, "back in the day," before BCs amilerated the absolute need for it. Talk about old fashioned.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The point about accident rates going down, I would credit to DM'S, dive operators, and civilians willing to intervene pre-dive, or go off the stern in a flash to do a surface rescue/retreival.

Exactly! Maybe the accident rates have not gone up, but based on my own observations, it takes much more supervision to ensure that the typical load of tourist divers makes it back to the boat than it did 20 plus years ago. We also have better gear, with beeping computers to remind us of ascent rates etc. which probably helps to some extent.