what makes a diving agency a diving agency?

[randytay]

The only other dive shop I've ever heard of not accepting UTD/GUE is Rusty's shop in the Inland Empire in Southern California. His reasons aren't of reason at all, just profit and salesmanship.

What is the name of Rusty's shop and where is it?

 

[paolov]

Is there a regulatory something that oversees the diving agencies (NAUI, PADI, UTD,...)? I assume no, which means that we rely on the boat operators, equipment renters and tank fillers to recognize the agency on the c-card, correct?

CORRECT, dont forget DIVE RESORTS, they mainly are responsible in allowing you to dive using THEIR FACILITIES and their Brand. with a waiver !

Could anyone (individual, shop, dive club...) shop stand up an agency and certify divers based on training they deem appropriate?

As long as the DIVE OPERATOR would allow you with the understanding that you are not to hold the dive operator liable for any untoward actions you create by your actions.

the main purpose of the c-cards would be to represent yourself as having the necessary training and clearance to participate in such activity this reduces if not eliminates liability of the dive operator.

most dive ops build their business around the economic model based on profit and if possible eliminate liability. its a cycle of recruiting, training, equipment sales, facilities rental, hospitality business afterwards.

dive ops would link with a "KNOWN" dive agency to "HOPEFULLY" get some of those certified under their brand.

if Moonglow does not recognize GUE then she doesnt. there are other shops that would recognize the training of GUE.

try to read the history of GUE and the WKPP project and the dawn of DIR.

and GUE is great. i am not GUE affiliated but i have read the early publishing on theories by George I and JJ, when they were doing the WKPP dives several years back. that was when JJ was posting here in SB.


i use a BP/W not H brand tho.

as a matter of fact, my rig is of several brands put in unity by me to fit my trim. (not for cave diving tho)


here is a quote from NetDoc quoting JJ from post # 56 thread : Pronunciation of DIR?

I do remember his statement though, as we started to move to another subject: "You know, I don't care HOW they pronounce it, just as long as they can learn from it." And, he said that with a sincere smile on his face! Yeah, I would say that safety is the reason that GUE/ Gooee and DIR/Duhr exist. A dive agency by any other name... is still about safety.

 

[chrpai]

Please, let's stop the dogpile on Moonglow and welcome her back into the fold. I, for one, am curious about what she has to say. We all might learn something.

I don't know her, but a quick search of her posting history says she's been an instructor for 3 years and that she was a cave diver (NACD) before that. I'm suspecting that either she was part of the anti-DIR side of the cave diving community or she's merely parroting common beliefs that may exist at the LDS she instructs at. There was a whole lot of "we do this" and "we've done that" in her posting so I suspect it's the latter.

Someone else said it earlier. If we don't teach it or sell it, it'll kill you.

I also don't think she'll be back to explain her position. Not because of any supposed dog piling but because of her "you get it or you don't" attitude towards John.

Not a dog pile... just my observations on who she likely is and what she likely represents. And for 50Fathom.... in my 6 months of being an active diver in Austin I'd say your observations are somewhat correct. The anti-DIR bias isn't so much from the divers but more from the professional establishment.

 

[lv2dive]

Please, let's stop the dogpile on Moonglow and welcome her back into the fold. I, for one, am curious about what she has to say. We all might learn something.

Not sure if my post was part of what you were referencing in the dogpiling statement as I was genuinely curious. I certainly did NOT mean my previous post to be contributing to any such thing, I apologize if it was.

OTOH, while I am interested in her response, I'm not sure I'd characterize myself as being eager to "welcome her back into the fold" given her lack of respect towards the two training agencies in question, her cryptic responses, and my disregard for someone who starts something and then walks away from it.

 

[paolov]

her cryptic responses, and my disregard for someone who starts something and then walks away from it.

hmmmm isn't that termed a Troll ?

 

[ScubaSteve]

hmmmm isn't that termed a Troll ?

And a successful one at that.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think that's a common theme -- I got in the water with NW Grateful Diver and looked at him and said, "I want me some of that!"

... and that's really the crux of the matter. Last night I took two of my current AOW students on their night dive. One of them had recently been through an AOW class at a local area shop, and after deciding he didn't get what he wanted from the class came to me. He's constantly making comparisons between my class and the one he took previously ... and it's not a comparison that is complimentary to the prior product.

See, what moonglow is really saying is that it's a business decision ... which is their right as a business. Imagine if they allowed GUE/UTD divers on their local dives, or in their classes ... other students would be looking at what they're doing, or asking questions about that weird gear they're wearing ... and a percentage of them would decide that "I want me some of that". Unfortunately, the shop doesn't sell any of that. And where would that leave the shop? Looking bad and losing business, quite likely ... and it's easier to find rationalizations for why they won't allow it.

I'm not DIR ... in fact, I teach through the same agency that moonglow does. But I do believe in training divers to think and act as a team. I do teach gas management. I do insist, at every level, in good buoyancy technique. I do challenge my divers to not just blindly do something because their instructor said so, but to understand WHY they would want to do it. More than 90% of the students I've taught OW classes to over the past eight years have gone on to continuing education ... and unlike most instructors I don't actively "upsell" continuing education. A couple years ago I went through my records and realized that I can account for the fact that about 80% of them are still actively diving. And probably close to half of them have migrated toward DIR or some other technical training at some point. Now, there are factors such as location (lots of active tech diving here, and a large GUE/UTD community) and the fact that as an independent instructor I tend to attract motivated students ... but a great deal has to do with training divers to be comfortable in the water from day one. As one of my friends who owns a local shop once lamented ... mainstream training often teaches divers just enough to scare the crap out of themselves, and many therefore give up diving. Go into a typical local dive shop and relate to them an incident you had that made you feel uncomfortable of frightened and the usual response is that they'll use it as an excuse to sell you another class. They don't WANT divers who don't have these experiences ... it's bad for business.

Say what you will, and believe what you will about GUE/UTD training, but their dropout rate is severely below the industry average. The quality of their training is the primary reason for that ... they teach people how to dive without putting themselves into scary situations. Same can't be said for a lot of local dive shop training ... and dive shops generally know it. They would prefer not to expose their customers to someone who can hover quietly in the water, who can ascend without having to constantly kick to maintain position, who looke like they actually BELONG in the water ... because they know that once people see the alternative, they'll want some of that ... and it's not what they sell.

So they make rationalizations for why their way is better.

Nothing personal ... it's business ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaSteve]

This troll however did create some really good reading so it can be seen as a positive (for everybody but the people that get trained by the narrow minded shop in TX that has an apparent hate on for GUE and UTD).

 

[paolov]

They don't WANT to expose their customers to someone who can hover quietly in the water, who can ascend without having to constantly kick to maintain position, who looke like they actually BELONG in the water ... because they know that once people see the alternative, they'll want some of that.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Agree, totally, and the alternative is get it right the first time (isnt that same as Do it Right ) it saves the trouble or minimizes the traumatic experiences.

on your picture

Now a picture tells a thousand words.

This troll however did create some really good reading so it can be seen as a positive

yep, trolls do make nice stories just like Shrek. how does she look? like princess Fiona? i mean ... Cameron Diaz?