You can read a summary of NAUI's position on the RSTC here-
World Recreational Scuba Training Council - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
World Recreational Scuba Training Council - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
what makes a diving agency a diving agency?
- Thread starter FM1520
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OP
FM1520
Contributor
Actually, UTD was one of the "agencies" my dive buddy and I were considering using to continue our diving education. UTD is a class act and I like their approach. The question of who will recognize UTD (and others) the further you get from Carlsbad has come up - not necessarily a show stopper but it started the conversation and prompted this post.
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We must clear up a few confusions. The RSTC and the WRSTC are not standards setting or maintaining organizations, their standards represent nothing more than an amalgam of the lowest standard of any of their members, that is why you fill not find NAUI or IANTD within their ranks. The presence or absence of insurance does not represent anyone having vetted anything, it represents merely the payment of premiums. The carriers are quite happy to insure what passes for instruction these days and it is rather hard to promulgate standards that are less demanding than those that they already underwrite. Yes, it is possible to write your own C-cards. This was common practice up through the 1960s, and is still done in some cases and circumstances today. Acceptance of such instruments are dependent on the recognition of the certifying individual within the diving community.
Mr Carcharodon
Contributor
In practice not many dive operations are very motivated to turn away paying customers so any card will do. When asked, which is usually less than half the time, I show a Los Angeles County card which while a bit unusual no one has ever batted an eye at. The bar to starting an agency is low. It is much more of a issue to keep it going.
I want to take training that ends with a card that says:
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"Trained by Thalassamania"
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THAT would be a legit card to have!
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"Trained by Thalassamania"
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THAT would be a legit card to have!
When I was running the publicity blitz for SEI to get them known around the dive community I sent emails worldwide. Sent copies of our philosophy, history, training model, and that all of the major carriers had no problem insuring us. No one ever asked about RSTC or WRSTC membership except one shop in the keys. I had our CEO who at times not only was an officer in the YMCA program for many years but also sat on the RSTC send them a message. Out of literally hundreds (it was long and time consuming process) of contacts that was the only one that questioned the validity of the cert. I did however have more than a few "Thank God! We know we won't have to babysit your divers" comments. "Please send us all you can" was another one.
But I also was made aware by another shop or two that after the fall of the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall, a lot of agencies sprung up in what was formerly eastern Europe. No one had ever heard of them. So what ops were doing was what Frank talked about, asking questions, maybe a pool checkout, or simple shallow dive to make sure these divers were not going to kill themselves or someone else. After that it was good to go.
Truth be told if one really wanted to, you could buy your own gear, a compressor, have your own pool, teach yourself to dive, order a fake c card from on line the same as people do driver's licenses,
http://www.identityprops.com/
http://www.easyidcard.com/
http://www.quickidcard.com/
or buy a card machine and print your own
http://www.alphacard.com/landing-pp...cards&kmmt=e&gclid=CJuUz5fjjLMCFQSg4AodB2QAcA
from some obscure agency you made up in lower Slobovia, and likely get on 90-95% of the boats in any busy dive location. As long as you had the main card -Mastercard, VISA, AmEX, Discover, etc. and no one would bat an eye.
But it's easier and cheaper just to take a proper class and learn that way.
But I also was made aware by another shop or two that after the fall of the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall, a lot of agencies sprung up in what was formerly eastern Europe. No one had ever heard of them. So what ops were doing was what Frank talked about, asking questions, maybe a pool checkout, or simple shallow dive to make sure these divers were not going to kill themselves or someone else. After that it was good to go.
Truth be told if one really wanted to, you could buy your own gear, a compressor, have your own pool, teach yourself to dive, order a fake c card from on line the same as people do driver's licenses,
http://www.identityprops.com/
http://www.easyidcard.com/
http://www.quickidcard.com/
or buy a card machine and print your own
http://www.alphacard.com/landing-pp...cards&kmmt=e&gclid=CJuUz5fjjLMCFQSg4AodB2QAcA
from some obscure agency you made up in lower Slobovia, and likely get on 90-95% of the boats in any busy dive location. As long as you had the main card -Mastercard, VISA, AmEX, Discover, etc. and no one would bat an eye.
But it's easier and cheaper just to take a proper class and learn that way.
The answer to your question is yes and no. There are locations where the government requires certification by a government agency i.e. Quebec. In this case, no one can certify anyone in this jurisdiction, or at least they could not use any other certification to dive within the jurisdiction. In other areas, no certification is required by law, so it is up to the shop keeper (for example) to accept or reject proof of certification. In-fact showing certification isn't a legal requirement in most areas...
So their is nothing that stops me, or anyone for that matter to issue a diver certification card. Or is there? Although a certification card isn't required by law, if you are in the business of certifying divers for profit, it isn't the certification agency that you have to worry about, but the civil courts. Civil courts examine act or omission. In other words, what was done and what wasn't done that was reasonable to do. So it comes down to the action and lack of action. Also there has to be a responsibility on the part of the defendant and this must be established. The test is what is reasonable.
If an Instructor is certified, s/he has an agency that can come to court to establish a standard. This in-turn is used to establish a "Standard-of-Care," to which the Instructor's actions/inactions are compared against. This however is not always the criteria. In Quebec for example, the court established that the standard held-out by the Agency was insufficient for diver safety. It was for this reason why the Government established its own standard.
Instructors who wish to teach diving usually become certified for many reasons that include: international recognition of standard, but also so that they can cover themselves with liability insurance. That same Instructor if uncertified, would find securing a liability policy difficult.
Do you need to be an Instructor to certify a diver? No, but in today's society, it's usually a prudent action.
So their is nothing that stops me, or anyone for that matter to issue a diver certification card. Or is there? Although a certification card isn't required by law, if you are in the business of certifying divers for profit, it isn't the certification agency that you have to worry about, but the civil courts. Civil courts examine act or omission. In other words, what was done and what wasn't done that was reasonable to do. So it comes down to the action and lack of action. Also there has to be a responsibility on the part of the defendant and this must be established. The test is what is reasonable.
If an Instructor is certified, s/he has an agency that can come to court to establish a standard. This in-turn is used to establish a "Standard-of-Care," to which the Instructor's actions/inactions are compared against. This however is not always the criteria. In Quebec for example, the court established that the standard held-out by the Agency was insufficient for diver safety. It was for this reason why the Government established its own standard.
Instructors who wish to teach diving usually become certified for many reasons that include: international recognition of standard, but also so that they can cover themselves with liability insurance. That same Instructor if uncertified, would find securing a liability policy difficult.
Do you need to be an Instructor to certify a diver? No, but in today's society, it's usually a prudent action.
Moonglow
Contributor
Our shop has a list of c-ards that we will accept, and we will accept no others. For the most part, the list is determined by the c-card being covered by insurance indemnity.
What agencies cards are on your shops' list?
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