Balanced Rig

[danvolker]

Wasn't trying to correct vocabulary or syntax, just wanted to be sure I understood. Maybe, maybe not. I dive double 130s in a 5mm wetsuit. Yep, I am heavy (and I really don't know that I could swim them up in the case of a buoyancy failure), but a 55 lb wing does the trick. Well, it sounds like you have a good handle on what is going on, and the issue is total lift, and a bigger wing does the trick. Now, I DO add air to my drysuit, AND to my BCD, at the surface when diving heavy double cylinders. Nothing wrong with that.Very. Thanks.I would say that 'just not dive them' should be the last option. If you can simply use a bigger wing, then do that - cheaper and easier. Nothing wrong with using a DR Super Wing (still have mine). If you like the 95s, find the wing that works and go diving. You might want to try some wings between 50 and 77 lbs, though, just to see what might work. Find some local people to borrow them from, to check out different lift capacities.

The issue many of us have with this....the need for a 80 or a 100 pound lift wing to pull the diver up to the surface....is that when this amount of lift is required, it is impossilbe to swim this up without the wing/bc working, and the assumption that a buddy would not have enough lift to get you up becomes likely....So, convoluted solutions get tossed in then, like wearing two sets of bladders and inflator hoses, in case of a wing tear....Clearly the diver doing this hopes whatever tears the first bladder, does not also cut into the 2nd. So then the diver with this double bladder wing then really needs a huge deployable float, as one more back up device, except using one of these as a "controllable elevator" is not a skill most of these divers will ever practice or become good at.

Also.....with these huge double bladder wings with 100 pounds of lift, filled with enough gas to get the very heavy diver neutral.....and with the big oversize tanks we are talking about for some divers in this direction....the drag become enormous, and the diver's ability to move around at anything beyond a snail's pace is compromised...gas consumption goes up dramatically--because of the work required to push the inflated monster bladder around....often pushing the diver to buy even larger tanks....the cycle just keeps getting more ridiculous.

So we propose the balanced rig, and bottom times reasonable for this to work.
And again, twin 80s with an 80 cu ft stage bottle still needs only a 40 pound wing to work and be balanced.
Personally I prefer just my twin 80s for a 280 foot dive, and would use a 30 cubic foot bottle for o2 deco.
If I am shallower than 185 feet, I am just going to use 21/ 30 , and not drag the O2 bottle through currents. Zero current maybe

 

[rlynch]

To the OP. ThE UTD wing you are referencing has some kind of restricting going on with it. see the images here UTD Online Store - +1 206 321-0870 - sales@utdequipment.com. a simple test would be to assemble it ready to dive with your 95's, can light, etc and see if it floats by itself in the water. If not it ain't going to work for that config. If it does then the rest of your gear and you are the issues (you don't mention weight belt, lead, pocket contents, etc so it tough to say). My system when used with double 98's (OME/Faber) is a 60lb Halcyon wing, SS BP, and canlight. I has no problems floating this or my 112's (OMS/Faber again) with an AL plate (it can float them with the SS one as well but I use my AL one in order to lighten the load to swim up if needed) This has nothing to do with the concept of a balanced rig. IMHO you need to dive a "Balanced" rig b/c stuff happens and you can lose your BC, it happened to me this summer offshore and I swam up my gear from 100 fsw, attached a new valve and splashed to complete the dive. no drama.

 

[in too deep]

To the OP. ThE UTD wing you are referencing has some kind of restricting going on with it. see the images here UTD Online Store - +1 206 321-0870 - [email]sales@utdequipment.com[/email]. a simple test would be to assemble it ready to dive with your 95's, can light, etc and see if it floats by itself in the water. If not it ain't going to work for that config. If it does then the rest of your gear and you are the issues (you don't mention weight belt, lead, pocket contents, etc so it tough to say). My system when used with double 98's (OME/Faber) is a 60lb Halcyon wing, SS BP, and canlight. I has no problems floating this or my 112's (OMS/Faber again) with an AL plate (it can float them with the SS one as well but I use my AL one in order to lighten the load to swim up if needed) This has nothing to do with the concept of a balanced rig. IMHO you need to dive a "Balanced" rig b/c stuff happens and you can lose your BC, it happened to me this summer offshore and I swam up my gear from 100 fsw, attached a new valve and splashed to complete the dive. no drama.

I have removed the straps, did that day one, thanks for the tip though.
Re: lead, i did mention that I don't carry any lead in the first thread, nothing in the pockets, no extra crap clipped on, just a back up light.

I contacted UTD and they feel - based upon the equipment mentioned-

"True. Often people just ignore the idea of balanced rig and dive over weighted. Steel 95's in freshwater are waaay to heavy for a lot of people they just just don't know it.

UTD Equipment Team"

---------- Post Merged at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 04:07 PM ----------

The issue many of us have with this....the need for a 80 or a 100 pound lift wing to pull the diver up to the surface....is that when this amount of lift is required, it is impossilbe to swim this up without the wing/bc working, and the assumption that a buddy would not have enough lift to get you up becomes likely....So, convoluted solutions get tossed in then, like wearing two sets of bladders and inflator hoses, in case of a wing tear....Clearly the diver doing this hopes whatever tears the first bladder, does not also cut into the 2nd. So then the diver with this double bladder wing then really needs a huge deployable float, as one more back up device, except using one of these as a "controllable elevator" is not a skill most of these divers will ever practice or become good at.

Also.....with these huge double bladder wings with 100 pounds of lift, filled with enough gas to get the very heavy diver neutral.....and with the big oversize tanks we are talking about for some divers in this direction....the drag become enormous, and the diver's ability to move around at anything beyond a snail's pace is compromised...gas consumption goes up dramatically--because of the work required to push the inflated monster bladder around....often pushing the diver to buy even larger tanks....the cycle just keeps getting more ridiculous.

So we propose the balanced rig, and bottom times reasonable for this to work.
And again, twin 80s with an 80 cu ft stage bottle still needs only a 40 pound wing to work and be balanced.
Personally I prefer just my twin 80s for a 280 foot dive, and would use a 30 cubic foot bottle for o2 deco.
If I am shallower than 185 feet, I am just going to use 21/ 30 , and not drag the O2 bottle through currents. Zero current maybe

after diving this summer in double 80's with an 80 stage and 40 for deco, i have to say it feels way safer than the 95's.
i honestly don't think i could swim these up if i need to, i think i'd leave them on the bottom and hope to get to my bailout depth with my 80....just saying.....

 

[Colliam7]

The issue many of us have with this....the need for a 80 or a 100 pound lift wing to pull the diver up to the surface....is that when this amount of lift is required, it is impossilbe to swim this up without the wing/bc working, and the assumption that a buddy would not have enough lift to get you up becomes likely....

Point well taken, but I wonder about several things.

I doubt the OP will need an '80 or a 100 pound lift wing' - he has already said that a 77lb Super Wing was enough to float at the surface (he mentoned 80 but I suspect it was the older 77lb variety). And, while that was enough, the suggestion is to find something in between a 50lb and a 77lb wing. Personally, I am a little surprised that, even with a drysuit, he doesn't float with dbl 95s. And, I would be surprised if a 60 lb Classic or Evolve would not suffice at the surface. But, the problem is, I don't know what he looks like in the water, either.

So, convoluted solutions get tossed in then, like wearing two sets of bladders and inflator hoses, in case of a wing tear....Clearly the diver doing this hopes whatever tears the first bladder, does not also cut into the 2nd.

Is a dual bladder wing really 'a convoluted solution'? It is a form of redundant buoyancy. Buoyancy failures from some catastrophic penetration appear, at least from anecdotal reports, to be uncommon - not impossible, but uncommon. More common would appear to be a failure of the inflator, or of a tie-wrap holding the inflator in place, or holding the corrugated hose in place, or a crack developing in the corrugated hose - all of which are amenable to resolution with a backup bladder and inflator system. (But, I fully agree with your sentiment - if someone puts a spear through my wing, the chances of the back-up bladder surviving are quite limited, virtually non-existant - unless I am diving an Oxycheq wing, in which case the primary bladder would also still be intact, because the spear would not have been able to penetrate the casing to begin with. ) I don't notice a particular problem with drag at depth with dbl 130s, with a 55lb wing, even when I dive a 5mm wetsuit. I am sure I use a bit more air in the wing but not enough to create any problem moving through the water, either swimming or scootering. Maybe that is just me - not noticing.

Having said that, I agree in general principle with the concept of a balanced rig - it essentially mitigates a potential problem - the consequences of catastrophic buoyancy failure. Where I will also fully agree is with the sentiment to use what works for him - he already said dbl 80s work. And, you can take 160 cf to considerable depth, and accomplish quite a bit. And, I also agree that finding the simplest, most minimalist solution is optimal. But, if I am going to 235 feet, dbl 80s generally won't give me enough backgas to enjoy the reason for the dive.

The obvious solution - dive sidemount, and ditch a tank if you have to, in order to swim to the surface.