Balanced Rig

[Insta-Gator]

The new Fabers are the L95DVB and they are not -8.325 full, they are -5.37 full and +1.69 empty.

In my opinion I would not buy Fabers that are not DVB models.

http://www.northeastscubasupply.com/store/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=86

Not necessarily recommending northeastscuba.

 

[ams511]

He can adjust my totals if he is using the DVB models. However, even if he has the older model he should still be able to float the rig with a 50lb wing. Something is not right.

 

[in too deep]

I think you have answered your own question.....You should be able to swim the doubles up to the surface without needing the wing....dual 80's make this easy....the dual 95's sound like a suicide rig for you, If you don't get enough air with the dual 80's, consider an 80 cu ft stage bottle clipped on to the left side, or just using shorter bottom times...or using a scoOter to DRASTICALLY LOWER air consumption from much lower work rate.

Going with bigger and bigger tanks continues to complicate the dive with ever larger bouyancy and increased drag problems.

i primarily dove double 80's with an 80 stage and a scooter.
i had a set of 95's for over 20 years and thought i'd try them out again, the were used with dive rite's super wings which back then had lots of lift and a balanced rig wasn't a concern....
probably best splitting the 95's

---------- Post Merged at 04:02 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:57 PM ----------

That's very odd that you can't get positive with a 55lb wing in that configuration. Your wing should be more than enough to float 95s, the plate, and light without you even in it (and if you are in a drysuit, you float, too). My old 55lb wing was enough to float cave filled 104s and a steel plate.

I've got a hunch that you're in fact positive, but the tanks are too high on your back, so you can't get your face out of the water. Try dropping the backplate down your back a few inches by loosening the shoulders and tightening the crotch strap and see what happens.

the backplate is set to dir/gue/utd standards, being able to touch the top of the plate with the tips of my fingers.
prior to this i did try what you suggested, i couldn't reach the valves without hiking up the tanks.
how do people manage this, i'm sure i'm not the only one with issues

---------- Post Merged at 04:07 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:57 PM ----------

Nothing is worth AL100s to me.

Something is not right if you are in a drysuit, no lead, and having a big problem staying positive at the surface. I can't imagine full double 95s with bands, manifold and a can light being much more than 20 lbs negative, probably less. I think you should figure out that before investing in new tanks.

HP100s, specifically faber FX100s, are fairly close to neutral empty, so maybe they're a better option for you than 95s. Double steel tanks with a wetsuit are frowned upon by the old school crowd because of the lack of redundant buoyancy. Hence the dual bladder wings with an extra inflator hose. Personally I would opt for a lift bag instead; one inflator hose is plenty for me.

I like double AL80s and I don't know why you want to change from them unless you really need more gas. To me that means a deep difficult advanced dive, and usually people don't do that sort of diving without a very good understanding of their rigs and the buoyancy issues.

i don't want to change, using double 80's wet or dry no problem, using 95's in drysuit i can't balance it, was just trying to figure how other people manage their rigs

---------- Post Merged at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:57 PM ----------

my imidiate responce would be to say no way. i will assume i am missing something so pls tell me how teh lp95's are gaining about 14 lb. are you talking scale weight or bouyancy???




---------- Post Merged at 12:55 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:52 PM ----------

i can not explain this either. one thought is you wing a doubles wing or a wing that is listed for use with both single or doubles. i had a dive rite wing that is like that.

it's a utd 50lb wing, "60lbs Alpha Trim Device - Double Tanks Wing by Unified Team Diving"
i dove the 95's with dive rite's older super wings without a problem, before the whole balanced rig thing was as big a deal as it is today, understandably so.

 

[PfcAJ]

The DIR/GUE guideline is a starting point. Feel free to move the plate as you see fit. For reaching the valves, try doing a pre-stretch with a lot of gas in the suit before you descend.

Idk anything about a UTD alpha wing, but if its not enough to float your tanks without you strapped to them, its too small. That's the real test, at this point.

 

[in too deep]

The DIR/GUE guideline is a starting point. Feel free to move the plate as you see fit. For reaching the valves, try doing a pre-stretch with a lot of gas in the suit before you descend.

Idk anything about a UTD alpha wing, but if its not enough to float your tanks without you strapped to them, its too small. That's the real test, at this point.

I'll email the UTD and ask for their opinion

 

[Colliam7]

I can balance in fresh water doubl 80's rather well, however, switching to Faber 95's is really challenging.
- double alum 80's with a ss bp, can light, no lead, using a 50lb wing, with or without stage and deco bottles in a wetsuit or drysuit - no problem. - switching to 95's with alum bp, can light, no lead, using a 50lb wing with a drysuit i have to inflate the wing completely plus a little in the drysuit to be positive at the surface. . . . Is it worth getting rid of the 95's and getting alum 100's.

I am confused by the terminology, and want to clarify to make sure I understand what the issue really is. When you say 'balance', I think of trim - difficulty with a change in the trim characterisitcs when going from dbl AL80s to the Fabers (which I could easily understand, particularly in fresh water, with a wetsuit - big heavy steels on my back, with a wetsuit, in fresh water makes me want to roll). But, it appears that you are referring to total buoyancy, specifically the perceived need for something larger than a 50lb wing when you dive the Fabers in fresh water. A 50 lb wing, even with a drysuit, may not be optimal for you with dbl 95s in fresh water - OK, maybe an uncommon situation, but not unheard of, particularly in a wetsuit, in fresh water. Before I would consider getting a different set of tanks (and, I cannot imagine diving double AL100s under any circumstances), I would try a couple of bigger wings - a Dive Rite Classic, for example, provides 60 lbs of lift, as does a Halcyon Evolve 60. You mentioned that an older Dive Rite Super Wing was adequate, and I think at least one of the older models had 77 lbs of lift.

I've got a hunch that you're in fact positive, but the tanks are too high on your back, so you can't get your face out of the water.

I am wondering the same thing. It would be good to double check that, just to be sure. Put your reg in your mouth, and just go limp - try to float at the surface. Even if your face goes down in the water, but you float, you know the issue isn't total lift capacity. Not trying to be insulting in suggesting it, but I had the same situation some years back with a DR Rec Wing (51 lbs lift) and dbl PST 120s. I felt like I had to fill the Rec Wing so full to float at the surface (because the more I filled it, the more face down I went) that air began coming out of the dump valve. I ultimately found I didn't need a bigger wing, just a bit of tweaking of the position of the tanks on the rig.

 

[in too deep]

I am confused by the terminology, and want to clarify to make sure I understand what the issue really is. When you say 'balance', I think of trim - difficulty with a change in the trim characterisitcs when going from dbl AL80s to the Fabers (which I could easily understand, particularly in fresh water, with a wetsuit - big heavy steels on my back, with a wetsuit, in fresh water makes me want to roll). But, it appears that you are referring to total buoyancy, specifically the perceived need for something larger than a 50lb wing when you dive the Fabers in fresh water. A 50 lb wing, even with a drysuit, may not be optimal for you with dbl 95s in fresh water - OK, maybe an uncommon situation, but not unheard of, particularly in a wetsuit, in fresh water. Before I would consider getting a different set of tanks (and, I cannot imagine diving double AL100s under any circumstances), I would try a couple of bigger wings - a Dive Rite Classic, for example, provides 60 lbs of lift, as does a Halcyon Evolve 60. You mentioned that an older Dive Rite Super Wing was adequate, and I think at least one of the older models had 77 lbs of lift.I am wondering the same thing. It would be good to double check that, just to be sure. Put your reg in your mouth, and just go limp - try to float at the surface. Even if your face goes down in the water, but you float, you know the issue isn't total lift capacity. Not trying to be insulting in suggesting it, but I had the same situation some years back with a DR Rec Wing (51 lbs lift) and dbl PST 120s. I felt like I had to fill the Rec Wing so full to float at the surface (because the more I filled it, the more face down I went) that air began coming out of the dump valve. I ultimately found I didn't need a bigger wing, just a bit of tweaking of the position of the tanks on the rig.

"balance" is a term i see everyone using....i don't mind terming it trim, buoyancy....
i don't use the 95's with a wetsuit, i realize that they are to heavy.
in a drysuit they're still to heavy, however, the dr super wings with dual bladder 80lb lift can float them.
I haven't tried the "limp" thing... my face is out of the water and i'm not forced to float face down, just the fact that if i don't add air to the drysuit at the surface i sink....
not sure if i'm clear in my answers.
I'll try moving the wing, i have used all 3 holes, maybe moving the bands too.
or just not dive them!

 

[danvolker]

The "balanced rig" phrase could probably get a better name .... In this context, "balanced rig" in GUE parlance, is about being able to swim to the surface if your wing fails. In this area, GUE, WKPP, DIR, and many others, do not believe in a diver weighing so much at depth, that they are forced to use a wing as an elevator to get to the surface with.

With a "balanced Rig", a small amount of gas into the wing at the bottom is used to get neutral. When the diver wants to ascend, they must be able to do this by swimming. With a complete wing failure, the diver can swim up, and they will also have thier buddy next to them if they should need assistance....but the swimming solution is key. Weight can be ditched to make this a viable method for some.

 

[in too deep]

The "balanced rig" phrase could probably get a better name .... In this context, "balanced rig" in GUE parlance, is about being able to swim to the surface if your wing fails. In this area, GUE, WKPP, DIR, and many others, do not believe in a diver weighing so much at depth, that they are forced to use a wing as an elevator to get to the surface with.

With a "balanced Rig", a small amount of gas into the wing at the bottom is used to get neutral. When the diver wants to ascend, they must be able to do this by swimming. With a complete wing failure, the diver can swim up, and they will also have thier buddy next to them if they should need assistance....but the swimming solution is key. Weight can be ditched to make this a viable method for some.

Well then, i don't want to try swimming these up without any help and I don't wear any lead to ditch.

 

[Colliam7]

"balance" is a term i see everyone using....i don't mind terming it trim, buoyancy....

Wasn't trying to correct vocabulary or syntax, just wanted to be sure I understood.

i don't use the 95's with a wetsuit, i realize that they are to heavy.

Maybe, maybe not. I dive double 130s in a 5mm wetsuit. Yep, I am heavy (and I really don't know that I could swim them up in the case of a buoyancy failure), but a 55 lb wing does the trick.

in a drysuit they're still to heavy, however, the dr super wings with dual bladder 80lb lift can float them. I haven't tried the "limp" thing... my face is out of the water and i'm not forced to float face down, just the fact that if i don't add air to the drysuit at the surface i sink....

Well, it sounds like you have a good handle on what is going on, and the issue is total lift, and a bigger wing does the trick. Now, I DO add air to my drysuit, AND to my BCD, at the surface when diving heavy double cylinders. Nothing wrong with that.

not sure if i'm clear in my answers.

Very. Thanks.

I'll try moving the wing, i have used all 3 holes, maybe moving the bands too. or just not dive them!

I would say that 'just not dive them' should be the last option. If you can simply use a bigger wing, then do that - cheaper and easier. Nothing wrong with using a DR Super Wing (still have mine). If you like the 95s, find the wing that works and go diving. You might want to try some wings between 50 and 77 lbs, though, just to see what might work. Find some local people to borrow them from, to check out different lift capacities.