Overhead environments and open water scuba divers

[JamesK]

I understand entirely. The post you reference was a result of pent up frustration. James, you are aware of my opinion on this type of thing. As far as I'm concerned the president should have been at his funeral. Currently as an OW diver I would just like to be able to take certain overhead risks without the scrutiny I often see on this board. That said, as soon as the Suwannee river recedes I will be on a three day cavern course and will post on the experience for the very few scubaboard members who haven't already taken it. I've got a real good instructor and am looking forward to whatever can be taught and retained in three days. Yes, one extra day over the minimum

I can understand frustration. You also know my view on this. I am very glad you are going to get the training and can't wait to hear/read about your course. You are always going to have scrutiny from people when they think you are doing something unsafe be it overheads, deep air, or split fins. Just look at it as people who are concerned.

---------- Post Merged at 09:26 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:14 PM ----------

Replies in RED

I can imaging stopping the DM on the boat and asking, "Are there swim-throughs? If so, what are they like? Do they have multiple paths? Do they have sandy bottoms? How long are they"? I guess that would work. It would work. That is exactly what you should do IMO. Talk to the DM about the dive more, and ask questions regarding it. I never jump in the water somewhere without a thorough understanding of what we are doing if I have a person there who has that info. Of course it is different if no one has been there before. But more commonly you're going to be on a guided dive without any prior discussion of swim-throughs, and the DM goes into one without prior discussion. Then what do you do? Get out your slate and write, "TSandM told me I shouldn't follow you." Yeah right. Hell, I would do that if I did not feel comfortable. Of course a good Q&A before the dive could alleviate that uncomfortable and quite humorous situation.

Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I'd been on some really scary swim-throughs.
What is mundane to you, is a down right panic fest to others. To me if a DM does not mention swim throughs BEFORE any one gets in the water and asks who is not comfortable with it and make an alternate plan for those people, then he has no business being a DM.

On the other hand, I had the utmost confidence in my DM on this trip. After reading here about some less-than-conscientious DM's, I wouldn't want to enter any overhead environment with that kind of DM. I am glad you had the confidence in your DM. However, your last statement is what worries me to some point depending on how you mean it. To me it sounds like you are placing to much of your fate in a DM hands.

 

[ktkt]

What is mundane to you, is a down right panic fest to others. To me if a DM does not mention swim throughs BEFORE any one gets in the water and asks who is not comfortable with it and make an alternate plan for those people, then he has no business being a DM. ​

Exactly, and divers should speak up when surprises like this are thrown their way.

Of course, I've been lucky and only had good DM's so far. They have discussed the swimthroughs in briefing, pointed out the alternatives (so far, swimming around has always been an option). When I was a much newer diver, my guide stopped before each one to give me a minute to check it out and then signaled to ask if I wanted to go through or around.

My very first swimthrough, I swear, was only 6-8 feet long, if that. It was more of a tiny arch. But I really did stop and look at it for what seemed like ages before going through (probably only a minute in retrospect). I looked to make sure I could see the other end. It was pretty narrow, so I checked for any spooky fish hiding out. My buoyancy was not as good as it is now, so I hovered to make sure my tank was going to clear the top. And so on. Now I have better control and a lot more experience, so I do this mental check quicker, but I still do the check before any swimthrough. I love swimthroughs, but it's important for me to make the decision whether to take one or not EVERY time. I also usually prefer to go last, even if there's a risk of some sand being stirred up, as I really don't like feeling crowded in by someone behind me. I want direct access to a known exit, without anybody blocking me in.

 

[bowlofpetunias]

Matt yes you should be questioning the DM before the dive. Any good dive brief IMHO includes a sincerely meant invitation for questions from the divers. If the DM does not downright encourage people to ask questions I would personally question their skills.... NOBODY is such a good communicator that they can explain a dive so well that they cover every area of concern to every potential participant. I want to know about DEPTH, CURRENT, OVERHEAD, ENTANGLEMENT risks, TOPOGRAPHY, TEMPERATURE, LIKELY VIZ, EXPECTED BOTTOM TIME, TURN and RESERVE PRESSURES and anything else that seems appropriate to know for the proposed dive. Of course the information I will require will depend on the site ie known or unknown to me &/or my buddy. If there is anybody doing the dive who doesn't seem to have much experience I will make a point of asking more questions knowing they may not be comfortable asking in hopes they learn from example that they can and should ask questions.

We can talk about training until the cows come home but what that training translates to in skill sets and knowledge is going to vary from one participant to the next. I have no respect for a DM who assumes skill sets based on Certificates or someone's personal self assessment. Skill in the water, the right attitude and tendency to panic or stay cool in hot situations are the keys IMHO. I have seen instructors I wouldn't buddy with in a pink fit and OW divers I would trust my life to (which in many cases is what you are doing when you buddy with someone).

Someone asked earlier if there was a wreck penetration course available in my area since cave and cavern are not. To tell the truth I haven't checked but I suspect it would be possible. I won't be laying out $600 or so for the course tho. I have no intention of diving caves and certainly not penetrating wrecks, just doesn't interest me. I am quite capable of saying NO to situations that are beyond my skill set. I like Lynn's suggested guidelines and as I said before anything with entanglement potential is a no brainer for me.

I have gone through swim throughs and Fishrock because I had a lot of information and was comfortable that the dive was within my skill set. I have refused to follow DM's through some areas because I was not confident with the information and my competence to handle it. I will err on the side of caution not blindly follow like sheep to the slaughter!

 

[FPDocMatt]

Originally Posted by Matt Beckwith
I can imaging stopping the DM on the boat and asking, "Are there swim-throughs? If so, what are they like? Do they have multiple paths? Do they have sandy bottoms? How long are they"? I guess that would work. It would work. That is exactly what you should do IMO. Talk to the DM about the dive more, and ask questions regarding it. I never jump in the water somewhere without a thorough understanding of what we are doing if I have a person there who has that info. Of course it is different if no one has been there before. But more commonly you're going to be on a guided dive without any prior discussion of swim-throughs, and the DM goes into one without prior discussion. Then what do you do? Get out your slate and write, "TSandM told me I shouldn't follow you." Yeah right. Hell, I would do that if I did not feel comfortable. Of course a good Q&A before the dive could alleviate that uncomfortable and quite humorous situation.

Maybe I'd have a different opinion if I'd been on some really scary swim-throughs.
What is mundane to you, is a down right panic fest to others. To me if a DM does not mention swim throughs BEFORE any one gets in the water and asks who is not comfortable with it and make an alternate plan for those people, then he has no business being a DM.

On the other hand, I had the utmost confidence in my DM on this trip. After reading here about some less-than-conscientious DM's, I wouldn't want to enter any overhead environment with that kind of DM. I am glad you had the confidence in your DM. However, your last statement is what worries me to some point depending on how you mean it. To me it sounds like you are placing to much of your fate in a DM hands.

JamesK, I agree with everything you said.

Our DM did indeed mention swim-throughs before each dive on which we had them, told us not to follow with less than 1000 psi, and told us if we didn't want to go in them just go above, watch their bubbles, and meet them on the other side.

I also see what you're saying about not taking responsibility for my own safety by assuming the DM, no matter how trustworthy and competent, will keep me safe. Because no matter how competent and caring the DM is, he can't protect me from every contingency. That's my responsibility.

---------- Post Merged at 01:35 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 01:31 AM ----------

Matt yes you should be questioning the DM before the dive. Any good dive brief IMHO includes a sincerely meant invitation for questions from the divers. If the DM does not downright encourage people to ask questions I would personally question their skills.... NOBODY is such a good communicator that they can explain a dive so well that they cover every area of concern to every potential participant. I want to know about DEPTH, CURRENT, OVERHEAD, ENTANGLEMENT risks, TOPOGRAPHY, TEMPERATURE, LIKELY VIZ, EXPECTED BOTTOM TIME, TURN and RESERVE PRESSURES and anything else that seems appropriate to know for the proposed dive. Of course the information I will require will depend on the site ie known or unknown to me &/or my buddy. If there is anybody doing the dive who doesn't seem to have much experience I will make a point of asking more questions knowing they may not be comfortable asking in hopes they learn from example that they can and should ask questions.

Frankly, I didn't realize this was possible. I thought you just had to sit there, listen to the briefing, then follow the DM into the water. But then, I have only been on 3 dive trips on boats.

But it's great to know. From now on, I'll ask whatever questions need to be asked, before each dive.

Thank-you.

 

[clownfishsydney]

The point I made about Sheck Exley is that his risk assessment of the dive failed. He thought that the risk was covered by his contingencies but it was not. This is a basic mistake. It does not matter if you are diving to 10 metres or 50 metres or entering a 400 metre long cave, your risk assessment must come up with a result that the risk is tolerable (presumably in the case of a diver, this means that you will not die).

As to Dave Shaw, hell, his case is one of the worse I have ever seen of an inexperienced diver with too much money doing course after course and buying equipment that enabled him to do dives that otherwise could not be done (the dive he died on at 270 metres - 900 feet - was only his 333rd dive). His main mistake that killed him was his plan to put the body of Deon Dreyer in a body bag. This is hard work at 20 or 30 metres, let alone at the depths he was planning to do it at. He did not look at better and easier ways to retrieve the body. Remember, he had already connected the body by his reel to the shotline. All that they needed to try was to lift the shotline with a lift bag. In the end, this is what ended up bring Dreyer's body as well as Shaw's body back near the surface.

If this did not work, then taking a separate rope to the body and attaching it directly would have been a much easier option. Also remember that Dreyer's body had floated free of the silt before Shaw's torch head got entangled in the line. If he had left once this had happened, he would have possibly survived. See my web site page about this sad event: Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site.

 

[farsidefan1]

My first dive after certifying was in Belize. NO briefing given and we went through a swim through that must have been 50 yards or longer (ok, I was a total noob so I don't have any accurate information but it was a loooong ways). I could not see any end for seveal (seemed like minutes) part way through there was a hole in the cieling where light came in but it was not big enough for an exit. Knowing what I know now I would have choked the living ... out of the dm for not briefing us. There were 3 brand new certified divers in our group. The passage was too narrow for 2 to pass so had something gone wrong there is no way the dm could have come in and helped us.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

My first dive after certifying was in Belize. NO briefing given and we went through a swim through that must have been 50 yards or longer (ok, I was a total noob so I don't have any accurate information but it was a loooong ways). I could not see any end for seveal (seemed like minutes) part way through there was a hole in the cieling where light came in but it was not big enough for an exit. Knowing what I know now I would have choked the living ... out of the dm for not briefing us. There were 3 brand new certified divers in our group. The passage was too narrow for 2 to pass so had something gone wrong there is no way the dm could have come in and helped us.

Victoria Tunnel ... right? I remember the hole in the ceiling.

I had about 70 dives under my belt when I did it, and my dive buddy had maybe 30. It's a pretty deep hole too ... starts at over 80 feet and comes out at around 90.

It's actually only 40 feet long ... but it seemed a lot longer.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Centrals]

.... In the end, this is what ended up bring See my web site page about this sad event: Michael McFadyen's Scuba Diving Web Site.

Where did you get the information that Dave Shaw did not have any training from an qualified instructor on his Mk 15.5?

 

[clownfishsydney]

I was told that Shaw was not trained for his Mk 15.5 by someone who knew Shaw or the people he was diving with (I cannot now remember who). Whether it is true or not I do not know.

 

[wtcreaux]

I was told that Shaw was not trained for his Mk 15.5 by someone who knew Shaw or the people he was diving with (I cannot now remember who). Whether it is true or not I do not know.

Michael,

Per the book "Raising the Dead: A true story of death and survival", Chapter 18,

".....The cradle of string that held the body of Deon Dreyer was hanging from the head of Dave Shaw's cave light, wrapped twice around it. And the light head, which Shaw usually wore at the back of his right hand, was hanging free.
Don Shirley and every other cave diver understood what that meant: Shaw at some point had slipped his hand from the light's rectangular grip and had allowed it to hang loose. The trailing light head had tangled in the cave line that led from the shot line to the body, the line which Shaw had run during his dive in October. Shaw had become the victim of one of the simplest and most insidious errors in cave diving: he had become tangled in the guide line.
.....because the camera housing prevented him from hanging the light around his neck, as he usually would, Shaw allowed the light to hang down by his side. It tangled in the guide line, which trapped him when he tried to leave."

This book was a very interesting read.......