SSI Class - Failed

[oly5050user]

Except for the "cheap" part, if the "product" is training, then that's not exactly correct.

Anyplace that does a sufficient volume to always have a class running can easily roll a small percentage of students into the next class for additional training for no (measurable) additional cost.

Almost can be thought of as true,but, lets say a facility limits a class size to 8 ..I have 8 paying customers in a new class and a failed student. I cannot expect the LDS/instructor to put off a paying customer to put a failed non paying student in his/her place.
Some pools charge the rental fee based on how many are in the class,in that case failed student must pay. Some instructors get paid on a per student basis - per class, again that failed student must pay so the instructor can be paid.
Many independent instructors pay for pool time and rental gear for the pool on a per per student basis,here the failed student should pay to participate.
I have worked with students that were struggling and who really wanted to succeed on a 1 to 1 basis for 1 session(1-2 hours) to get them up to speed. I do not do it for free.The LDS pays me for my time on a hourly basis. The student usually does not , unless it is in the form of a tip as a expression of thanks. Anymore time than that there is a charge either for private instruction or for another ow course. Sometimes you just have to tell the person diving is not for them.
After teaching for 40years and thousands of students, I find that the student that fails usually is not taking the class for themselves, but for what some one else wants them to do (a reluctant wife/girlfriend taking the class for husband/boyfriend). Very often that same person does not follow instructors advise on gear selection-using old ill fitting gear that is loaned to them from husband/boyfriend/relative. Or a person who has very poor swim abilities and thinks that diving will cure them of their fear of the water. Ninety nine percent of the time there always is an underlying reason why someone, an adult, would fail a ow course that is so simple a 10 year old can do easily.

 

[ams511]

Ha! It wasn't aimed at you Superlyte27.

It was for those who seem to insist that one can provide a cheap, quality product, with no time restriction. As you pointed out, it's not going to happen. Something is going to suffer.

You and Superlyte27 are still living in 1980. Again, let me give you an example, in tax return preparation it is common for CPA firms to send your return to a service bureau in India (larger firms have an office there) for preparation. Your information is transmitted to India in the evening here before the CPA goes home and a return is waiting for the CPA when he arrives the next morning. The cost for an Indian worker is about 1/3 of an American. So using an Indian service bureau a CPA can decrease both cost and turnaround time, while maintaining quality.

In Scuba, there is a company called HOG. I have never used the regulators but from all reports they are comparable to higher-end Scubapro and Apeks regulators. However, these regulators cost about 1/3 as much as the other ones. The price is definitely better, the quality is the same, and you can order it and get it tomorrow. So what is sacrificed besides dealer margins?

 

[flots am]

Almost can be thought of as true,but, lets say a facility limits a class size to 8 ..I have 8 paying customers in a new class and a failed student. I cannot expect the LDS/instructor to put off a paying customer to put a failed non paying student in his/her place..

That depends on how big you are.

If you generally have a few OWI/AI hanging around, it's not a big deal.

Some pools charge the rental fee based on how many are in the class,in that case failed student must pay.

You do need to have a pool available. If you're still at the point where you're paying by the student to rent a pool, then this obviously wouldn't work for you.

. . .

There are lots of reason people can toss up as to why "it won't work" but the answer is that "it already works."

flots

 

[oly5050user]

That depends on how big you are.

I

f you generally have a few OWI/AI hanging around, it's not a big deal.

who pays them??

You do need to have a pool available. If you're still at the point where you're paying by the student to rent a pool, then this obviously wouldn't work for you.



There are lots of reason people can toss up as to why "it won't work" but the answer is that "it already works."

flots

You cannot expect someone to work for nothing..Diving is fun and a passion for many instructors, if not all,,but working for nothing is not going to happen here. Do you work for nothing? Do you find that you are asked to work overtime to get a job done and accept doing it for free? I worked in corporate and my overtime was time and 1/2 plus if over 9 hrs for that week it was double time pay. No difference here. a student pays for a course,a course is delivered and others in the class do well and pass.The student that fails should expect that to continue or get extra 1 to 1 time with an instructor that there is a cost involved to do so.

 

[rhwestfall]

When we keep bringing up the cost of extra time, from my limited knowledge of how the shops here (in the seasonal north) handle it is (I have not experienced it first hand, but in discussions, appears to be presented in this manner) by having the students extra time be part of the next scheduled class..... its not like we are talking about some exotic 1-on-1 tutoring.......

sure, it it provided that way, pay up! But it doesn't appear to be what is going on here.

This all 7 failed thing, is still, IMHO, a SCAM!

 

[redacted]

OW trainers: What do you do to assure your students that you are not looking to take their $$$ and leave them high and dry? (as this LDS did) Most that I have met make it quite clear that they will put in a little extra time and effort if that is what it takes the get students certified.

 

[weitodive]

I always tell my students that we won't move faster than the slowest student but I do say that if there is a skill that is tricking someone up that I might have them come back another time for some personal instruction. I haven't ever charged a student for extra time but I have also not had too many students with major issues. I did take about 4 weeks with multiple extra open water dives during one class. I didn't charge them but they did show their appreciation after the course. As a business, I have to worry about reputation. I think the extra time that you take with students for free will pay off a lot more than the 20-50 you might charge for extra sessions. I always continue to try as long as they are still wanting to. I think the op's instructor will definitely take a big hit on reputation. I have found that people will have no problems paying as long as they are told up front and are continually worked with. If all 7 students need remedial training, I would have to look at how I conducted my training and consider myself the failure point. That's just my 2c.

 

[boulderjohn]

When working with a large class, there will occasionally (very rarely) be occasions when an individual student has such a problem with an individual skill that I will say to that student, "OK, we need some more work with this. We are going to go ahead with the class for now, but let's talk later about when we can work this out." Perhaps it will mean an extra session, but more typically we get things taken care of during a time period when the rest of the class is practicing free swimming activities. I have almost never had to schedule additional class time.

Let me repeat for the 4th or 5th time: it is a standards violation to take students all the way through the confined water portion of the class, complete all skills, and then tell them they failed. Student who are failing should never reach the end of the class, let alone not know they are failing until then.

---------- Post Merged at 07:16 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:12 PM ----------

I am going to repeat the rationale for what I said just to be clear.

At the completion of every required skill, the instructor is required to tell students whether they have completed the skill satisfactorily or not. If not, then they are supposed to repeat it until it is OK. Under standards, you cannot complete the pool work until you have either demonstrated mastery of every skill or been told specifically what skills you failed and will need to make up.

 

[Superlyte27]

You and Superlyte27 are still living in 1980. Again, let me give you an example, in tax return preparation it is common for CPA firms to send your return to a service bureau in India (larger firms have an office there) for preparation. Your information is transmitted to India in the evening here before the CPA goes home and a return is waiting for the CPA when he arrives the next morning. The cost for an Indian worker is about 1/3 of an American. So using an Indian service bureau a CPA can decrease both cost and turnaround time, while maintaining quality.

In Scuba, there is a company called HOG. I have never used the regulators but from all reports they are comparable to higher-end Scubapro and Apeks regulators. However, these regulators cost about 1/3 as much as the other ones. The price is definitely better, the quality is the same, and you can order it and get it tomorrow. So what is sacrificed besides dealer margins?

Haha, i'm not picking on HOG, but as a retailer, I was waiting nearly 3 months for HOG regs that were/are back ordered. I wanted to see what all the hype was about, but was unable to get one in my hand to test it out.

Also, I used to work for a very large company (more than 10,000 employees) who used to sub out 20% of it's production to India. Guess who had the lowest turn around times and customer satisfaction year after year in the company? Yup, you guessed it. India. We tracked it piece for piece for years, tens of thousands of examples. The data was undeniable. We terminated the contract.

I was 8 years old in 1980. Stuck in the '80's perhaps, but every business I've ran made profit after profit and my customer satisfaction ratings were the highest in the industry every single time, every single industry. From my first business, to my last business, I wasn't the cheapest, but I was the best. Everytime. If it aint broke, don't break it.

---------- Post Merged at 10:30 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 10:27 PM ----------

When we keep bringing up the cost of extra time, from my limited knowledge of how the shops here (in the seasonal north) handle it is (I have not experienced it first hand, but in discussions, appears to be presented in this manner) by having the students extra time be part of the next scheduled class..... its not like we are talking about some exotic 1-on-1 tutoring.......

sure, it it provided that way, pay up! But it doesn't appear to be what is going on here.

This all 7 failed thing, is still, IMHO, a SCAM!

The problem is that with technical classes, space is at a premium. We can only allow 3 students in a cave class. Quite honestly, 3 students isn't nearly as fun and productive as 2 students. So, adding them to the next class doesn't really work so much.

So, lets say they have one day of diving to repair their inadequacies.... By the time I load gear, fill tanks, drive to the site, make the dives, unload, yada yada yada, I've killed money for gas, time I could have used in my other business, or time with my family.... You see where I'm getting here? My time has value. Maybe it's not valuable to you, or doesn't have the same value to you. But I promise it's valuable to me and my family. I can't just give it up.

 

[fjpatrum]

Almost can be thought of as true,but, lets say a facility limits a class size to 8 ..I have 8 paying customers in a new class and a failed student. I cannot expect the LDS/instructor to put off a paying customer to put a failed non paying student in his/her place.
Some pools charge the rental fee based on how many are in the class,in that case failed student must pay. Some instructors get paid on a per student basis - per class, again that failed student must pay so the instructor can be paid.
Many independent instructors pay for pool time and rental gear for the pool on a per per student basis,here the failed student should pay to participate.
I have worked with students that were struggling and who really wanted to succeed on a 1 to 1 basis for 1 session(1-2 hours) to get them up to speed. I do not do it for free.The LDS pays me for my time on a hourly basis. The student usually does not , unless it is in the form of a tip as a expression of thanks. Anymore time than that there is a charge either for private instruction or for another ow course. Sometimes you just have to tell the person diving is not for them.
After teaching for 40years and thousands of students, I find that the student that fails usually is not taking the class for themselves, but for what some one else wants them to do (a reluctant wife/girlfriend taking the class for husband/boyfriend). Very often that same person does not follow instructors advise on gear selection-using old ill fitting gear that is loaned to them from husband/boyfriend/relative. Or a person who has very poor swim abilities and thinks that diving will cure them of their fear of the water. Ninety nine percent of the time there always is an underlying reason why someone, an adult, would fail a ow course that is so simple a 10 year old can do easily.

Let me just requite something for clarity.
"I cannot expect the LDS/instructor to put off a paying customer to put a failed non paying student in his/her place."

You seem to have forgotten that the "failed student" is still a paying customer. Maybe that's the whole problem...