Warning deep "bounce" dives warning

[lowviz]

I personally think "Pandora's Box" was opened when the only deep bounce dive accident I'm aware of was used as the "introduction" of a thread in Basic Scuba Discussions. Seemed like the dive accident was already being discussed in the dive's Local sub forum, the A&I forum, the Hunting forum and the Instructor 2 Instructor forum. The Basic Scuba Discussions thread spawned the Advanced thread that was quickly closed, and now we end up discussing it in New Divers and Those Considering.



How does one now put Pandora back in her box?

And finally, if we have to discuss this now, what good will dressing the discussion up with a lot of hype and hysteria do? :sad:

Steve,

(stage whisper) How about giving bounce diving a valid non-public place where it can be discussed intelligently by those that choose to subscribe?

<BTW, the fish were out of this world...>

 

[Blue Sparkle]

To introduce "gas management" in OW training is too early.
But make it one of the CORE topic in AOW or at least as 'speciality" for student to choose.

I disagree, since I think having enough air to breathe for any given dive (or, conversely, not having to turn a dive too soon because one really has no idea how to "time it" to get back to the boat with 500psi and so is being overly conservative) is key.

Basic gas management seems like it should be one of the building blocks of OW, to me. What makes you say that's too early?

As far as AOW... well I suppose if it were made one of the mandatory specialties? But still, it seems more basic than that to me since you need air on all your OW dives too.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Steve,

(stage whisper) How about giving bounce diving a valid non-public place where it can be discussed intelligently by those that choose to subscribe?

<BTW, the fish were out of this world...>

Dennis, I think prior to the accident that got a number of fear mongers all up in a tizzy, the subject was being discussed in valid places.

I was fairly annoyed when the discussion spilled over into I2I; from what I understand none of the victims were Instructors.

We have discussed similar diving in the Hawaii 'Ohana, without anybody feeling the need to "export" the discussion.

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/hawaii-ohana/229983-300-ft-dive-who.html

I'd start by defining Basic Scuba Diving, so there is some parameters for a definition of Basic Scuba Discussions. Then Beginning Diver and Those Considering discussions would need to be perhaps even more basic than those in Basic. Since we have a Technical Diving forum, which includes the Solo Diving sub forum (the vast majority of which falls within recreational diving parameters - sans buddy) I do not see why the general Technical Diving forum is a bad place; no subscription necessary.

Now I'm getting hungry!

 

[lowviz]

....//...Now I'm getting hungry!

Oh man, told me too late.

 

[Bob DBF]

I think the point of the original post is that depths are recommended to be kept conservative for new divers, for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is normally pretty high gas consumption. But it can be tempting to "go have a look" deeper, particularly if more experienced friends are urging you on. It's not a good idea. Until you have enough experience to understand your own gas consumption, AND to be pretty relaxed and facile with all the required functions of diving, you should stay up where your instructor told you to stay. I know very few people do that (and I wasn't one of them) but with more education, you begin to understand what the risks are of pushing your limits, and how poorly prepared you are as a new diver to cope with them.

So what you are saying is that new divers are not trained to make proper decisions? If that is correct, I agree. I believe the issue is follow the leader, take another class mentality that is now prevelent in diving. Divers should be trained to plan and execute dives on their own and have an understanding of how to expand their diving limits safely on their own. It used to be done, and in some places it is still being done.

We can argue all day about spearfishing or other reasons for deep bounce dives. But the bottom line is -- and I hope even VDGM would agree with this -- that brand new divers have no business even contemplating them.

Personally I don't care what people contemplate, it shows they are thinking. If they decide to make a deep bounce dive after open water class it shows that they were not given enough information to make a good diving decisions, but was given a c-card anyway.


Bob
-----------------------------
Diving tomorrow.

 

[VooDooGasMan]

Hale, there has been a few, cozumel, lousania oil rig, florida keys a very young man spearfishing awhile ago. The oil rig a spearo did a bounce, his friend told the story, so it was thought against, till spearo's posted and told it like it is, and you know the normal posters who antagonize to get there SB fill for the day, and the spearo's brought there characters out. Basic fact, spearo's, wreck divers, divemasters set the hook, bounce diving is done.

The problem falls upon, not being informed at all of the critical risks that involve bounce dives, when you are new diver, cozumel they had experience and it was an accident. There has been several bounce dives through the years that have took the lives of new divers. I feel they are not getting much more than a don't do it END OF LESSON. Then they go out with buddy's or themselves and go down to depth and come back up, very early in there diving and do not know of the contributors that can take hold of your thoughts and no knowledge to defend yourself, to know the exact thing you need to do now that this has taken place, since you decided you needed to make this deep dive(bounce dive).

After many of these and the way it is looked at, and the toll it puts on everyone when it turns tragic. I'm done with it something has to happen, do I know the exact way to do so, hell no I don't. Yet I will try anything, so I came up with learn to Bounce Dive thread.

If any thing at all these are on the beginner forums, for new divers to read and take caution, Lowviz has a great Idea, give it a forum, a place to be educated on why not do it and if I want to what do I need to prepare for it, and how it can be very dangerous from not knowing anything about it at all.

There are good discussions on this thread and the others also. Having the forum gives a proper chance for knowledge to learn what a Bounce Dive is.

Seriously, many years ago DIT(commercial dive school) had three divers go do a bounce dive, right after there scuba, its a fast pace scuba. I saw the video of the robot that found one of them, A sixgill was nibbling at his knee and leg. A california fisherman came up and started reeling in sixgills at Alki fishing pier, cause of it. very soon after, like a week sixgill fishing was closed, and still is.

That video told me two things, if you do not know what your in for when diving beyond what you do not know, the sea will eat you. The other is I would not mind dying deep into the sea, I eat seafood, at the end the sea can eat me.

If this needs translated, so you can understand, Knowone can take care of it for you.

 

[lowviz]

Hale, ...//... The problem falls upon, not being informed ....//....give it a forum, a place to be educated on why not do it and if I want to what do I need to prepare for it, and how it can be very dangerous from not knowing anything about it at all......//....If this needs translated, so you can understand, Knowone can take care of it for you.

The need is immediately obvious to the most casual of observers...

Sanctioned forum Please!!!

 

[Centrals]

Basic gas management seems like it should be one of the building blocks of OW, to me. What makes you say that's too early?

Gas management is indeed very important in any form of diving. But how to introduce it to absolute beginner is a big challenge. Asking someone who is pretty poor in buoyancy control as well as propulsion technique to come up with a meaningful SAC is not easy.
We have been told again and again to keep an eyes on the spg and 50 bars is the time to call the dive and ascent to 6m. What happen? Divers are still routinely run out of gas!!
Tank's capacity, SAC, Depth, filled pressure, ambient pressure, bottom time etc etc are incomprehensible to beginner divers.

Should we introduce "toe and heel" and hand brake turn for beginner driving?
I believe one small step at a time.

 

[dbulmer]

Disagree - strongly. (post 48)

Just because a diver may struggle initially with buoyancy control is not a reason to keep gas management out of the curriculum for a couple of reasons.

a) The method in calculating SAC remains the same whether you have 1 dive or a thousand dives. This is physics - the calculation is very simple .. even I can do it

b) The result of the calculation ie (the actual SAC rate) is an indicator of how much gas is being consumed at a particular point in time.

c) A different dive site, different weather, exposure equipment, choice of buddy ... excitement , using new equipment , the well being of the diver at a particular time as well as finning technique, trim and propulsion can all affect the actual SAC rate of a diver.

My point is that SAC rate can vary even for the experienced diver - what you do, is use it as a benchmark figure for planning purposes - that is its meaning - it is not a benchmark to be used against other divers and it does change.

d) If a diver is not introduced to the calculation then the only way to know how much gas is needed for a dive is through experience. Learning how to calculate it before a dive is a lot easier and safer and does not require the diver to get wet to do it.

You said:-
"We have been told again and again to keep an eyes on the spg and 50 bars is the time to call the dive and ascent to 6m. What happen? Divers are still routinely run out of gas!!"

Divers run out of gas because of inattentiveness by and large - I don't put that down to poor training- that is poor judgement by the diver.
"Tank's capacity, SAC, Depth, filled pressure, ambient pressure, bottom time etc etc are incomprehensible to beginner divers. "

These are simple concepts to explain - most people can get it, if it is actually taught.

 

[CamG]

I have become convinced that the general intent of OP's posts here on SB rarely maintained beyond a few pages.
Was this topic intended for advanced divers?.......NO!
Was it a result of more than one incident? ........YES!
What was the point? Make new divers and those considering diving to NOT DO IT!
Should there be a Forum? Why not thee are many different Forums.
Does some of the bickering burn SB members out? HXXL YEAH!
Do we learn from the discussion? Yes we do!

This thread was never intended for Technical divers nor would I have simplified or kept it in this forum!
My goal was not to start a Technical conversation outside the T2T or other Tech Forums.
So I guess that I am sorry to the Technical divers trolling the New Divers Forum for offending you.
I am sorry for the New Divers who are burnt out and will not post because of being thrashed.
I guess I am sorry I even started this thread!
You want to know why SB is the way it is then take a closer look!

CamG Keep Diving....Keep Training....Keep Learning!

Have fun with this one fellows!:mooner: