When does a project end?

[cavemn]

The stage dropping thread got a little boring. We had a discussion the other day about projects and can they go on for infinity or should there be some stated end.

In my non-diving project world we have a stated goal and timelines. Some projects are delayed, but never in perpetuity. The ones that get delayed too long get canceled and end.

So, how does one justify cave projects to perpetuity?

 

[PfcAJ]

When there is no more exploration to be done

 

[ucfdiver]

Usually when the cave ends and is fully mapped, or the significant connection you're after is made.

From my observations, projects with veteran divers are necessary to produce the next round of qualified cave divers.

 

[cavemn]

When there is no more exploration to be done

So, time between pushes can be forever?

How many caves have had only one person/team map the entire cave themselves?

Maybe, I should restate my question a little. When you stop extending the line, but there is still cave to go. How long do you get until it's no longer a project? Do you will it to another diver when you die or become a laggered old fart non-diver?

 

[cavemn]

Usually when the cave ends and is fully mapped, or the significant connection you're after is made.

From my observations, projects with veteran divers are necessary to produce the next round of qualified cave divers.

Really, what veteran diver produced Sheck... Maybe I don't drink the "Team" koolaide

 

[ucfdiver]

Really, what veteran diver produced Sheck... Maybe I don't drink the "Team" koolaide

Sheck participated in the team and shared knowledge with divers in a team that pushed his own line in several caves.

 

[cavemn]

Sheck participated in the team and shared knowledge with divers in a team that pushed his own line in several caves.

I know some of us are a little ADD(some more than others )

How about this. When the TEAM stops extending the line. How long does the TEAM get to sit on a project before it cease to become their TEAM project and another TEAM can takeover?

 

[PfcAJ]

For the projects I'm familiar with, you make dives when the conditions allow. If its 5 years between exploration attempts, well, grab a snickers. Its gunna be a while.

The last significant period of clear water in the WKP was in 08, I think. And the most recent attempt to extend Q tunnel was called off around 15k. The cave is dark now, and it could be months before another window of opportunity opens up, maybe years again. Same thing with Weeki Wachee in regards to the flow. They have a very narrow band of opportunity to do big dives in there, and they take advantage of it when conditions allow.

Other projects take as long as needed to get the job done, like the most recent survey of Peacock. Those guys took their time and produces a great map of the system that we all benefit from. Madison is another example. As long as they're working on things and hold the permits, its a project.

I'd say a lot of the stuff that is a long term 'project' takes more than 2 divers to pull off. Cathedral, Manatee, the stuff in the WKP, WeekiWachee, all that takes a group of dedicated and skilled divers, willing to sacrifice time and money to accomplish the mission.

 

[cavemn]

For the projects I'm familiar with, you make dives when the conditions allow. If its 5 years between exploration attempts, well, grab a snickers. Its gunna be a while.

The last significant period of clear water in the WKP was in 08, I think. And the most recent attempt to extend Q tunnel was called off around 15k. The cave is dark now, and it could be months before another window of opportunity opens up, maybe years again. Same thing with Weeki Wachee in regards to the flow. They have a very narrow band of opportunity to do big dives in there, and they take advantage of it when conditions allow.

Other projects take as long as needed to get the job done, like the most recent survey of Peacock. Those guys took their time and produces a great map of the system that we all benefit from. Madison is another example. As long as they're working on things and hold the permits, its a project.

I'd say a lot of the stuff that is a long term 'project' takes more than 2 divers to pull off. Cathedral, Manatee, the stuff in the WKP, WeekiWachee, all that takes a group of dedicated and skilled divers, willing to sacrifice time and money to accomplish the mission.

So, if you take conditions and permits out of the equation. Am I hearing squatters rights here? A team incapable or unwilling can claim public property???

 

[ucfdiver]

I know some of us are a little ADD(some more than others )

How about this. When the TEAM stops extending the line. How long does the TEAM get to sit on a project before it cease to become their TEAM project and another TEAM can takeover?

Clearly depends on conditions. The oleno team has done very little in the ways of exploration, due to bad viz, yet when they hit nearly 70ft one year, they dumped (I believe) over 10000ft of line in a few months, but viz hasn't been that stellar in 5 years. Rose Creek hasn't published anything in a few years-- it's crystal clear so I really don't know about that one (I know the cave life counting permit is active). Weeki had a recent window of opportunity but it wasn't enough for sufficient exploration at the existing flow levels and chose the option to document what they've done for the public. The Madison DPV permit has had progress made, yet slower than possible because many of those guys have focused on M2 Blue now that another viable entrance has been found.

Many projects focus on documenting and monitoring the caves during periods where exploration isn't possible. Here's two examples

WKPP Twitter-
Twitter

KUR Blog-
http://karstunderwaterresearch.org/blog/

So, if you take conditions and permits out of the equation. Am I hearing squatters rights here? A team incapable or unwilling can claim public property???

I'm unaware of any team that has laid "claim" to private property. Other teams have been granted access to Rose (there are 3 permits) as well as Wakulla (deep cave team and WKPP). I think you're mistaking research groups with groups designed to allow access to cave systems.

I've participated in 3 different Florida based permits, by simply submitting my diving resume and offering to help with the organizations goals while following their procedures.