Nitrox tables going too?

[fnfalman]

You guys are killing me! I can almost hear Doris Day singing "Gonna Take a Sentimental Journey"!

Actually in this case, Doris Day would be singing "Que Sera, Sera".

Here are some facts:

• Understanding Deco theory is not dependent on learning tables.
• PDCs (Personal Dive Computers) are not derived from tables. Both are derived from algorithms.
• Instructors should be teaching students to use the equipment they will be diving with. For most divers this is a PDC and not tables.
• PDCs don't get narced.
• PDCs provide an accurate record of your dives and safety stops.
• PDCs represent N2 buildup with an easy to understand (intuitive) bar graph rather than confusing "letter groups".
• PDCs don't forget when you submerged or when you surfaced.
• PDCs don't forget to reset the witness mark on your depth gauge.
• PDCs sound an alarm when you exceed your NDL, MOD or ascent rate.
• Learning PDCs can be less intimidating to a novice diver.

I don't teach tables to my OW students unless they specifically ask me to. No one has asked so far.

Very poignant.

 

[CuNanoTube]

@ Netdoc.
Interesting. All those points are valid however I do think not teaching the tables is limiting your students to a degree. Without the tables one is forced to buy and rely one a dive computer. Though this is most likely what is going to happen, there are some divers (like me when I started out) who barely could get over the entry "wall" financially, and lets face it, a PDC is a fortune.
There is also the fact that if a computer fails on the trip they will loose the 12-48 hour period their dive computer stipulates before returning to the water, and may have to purchase another computer.

Now, I will say this again, I agree fully with your reasoning to teach dive computers in the course, but giving tables a cursory glance even would help more than it would hurt.

 

[DevonDiver]

Interesting. All those points are valid however I do think not teaching the tables is limiting your students to a degree. Without the tables one is forced to buy and rely one a dive computer.

Which is what divers choose to do. I don't know any recreational divers that use tables. Simple as that.

Though this is most likely what is going to happen,

This has happened. Some time ago...

there are some divers (like me when I started out) who barely could get over the entry "wall" financially, and lets face it, a PDC is a fortune.

$130? A fortune? Compared to the total cost of equipping yourself for diving?

What does the cost of an entry-level dive computer cost? About the same as 2 days charter diving?

There is also the fact that if a computer fails on the trip they will loose the 12-48 hour period their dive computer stipulates before returning to the water, and may have to purchase another computer.

Yep, that's life. They could catch a cold too..and miss a few days diving. Or the weather could get bad.... etc etc

Now, I will say this again, I agree fully with your reasoning to teach dive computers in the course, but giving tables a cursory glance even would help more than it would hurt.

By your rationale... the cost of an entry level dive computer is a 'fortune'. So why are you supporting that said divers should also pay $$'s to purchase an unnecessary set of tables for a course, that they won't use afterwards? And pay for an extra 1/2 or 1 day of instructor tuition, to learn those tables that they won't use afterwards?

 

[Kenny13]

@ Netdoc.
Interesting. All those points are valid however I do think not teaching the tables is limiting your students to a degree. Without the tables one is forced to buy and rely one a dive computer. Though this is most likely what is going to happen, there are some divers (like me when I started out) who barely could get over the entry "wall" financially, and lets face it, a PDC is a fortune.
There is also the fact that if a computer fails on the trip they will loose the 12-48 hour period their dive computer stipulates before returning to the water, and may have to purchase another computer.

Now, I will say this again, I agree fully with your reasoning to teach dive computers in the course, but giving tables a cursory glance even would help more than it would hurt.

I have to disagree with the part about computers costing a fortune. I guess it depends on what you want/need. During OW class my instructor advised against spending a fortune on a computer with all the bells and whistles as most of that was unnecessary for a recreational diver. He's a tech diver and said he was sorry he spent the money on the computer he has. My computer cost under $300, is pretty basic, and does everything I need it to do. Also, cost less than my BC and less than my regs, so looking at it that way I couldn't consider it a fortune. JMO.

 

[Randy43068]

I have to disagree with the part about computers costing a fortune. I guess it depends on what you want/need. During OW class my instructor advised against spending a fortune on a computer with all the bells and whistles as most of that was unnecessary for a recreational diver. He's a tech diver and said he was sorry he spent the money on the computer he has. My computer cost under $300, is pretty basic, and does everything I need it to do. Also, cost less than my BC and less than my regs, so looking at it that way I couldn't consider it a fortune. JMO.

Computers these days can cost quite a bit (fortune) or not.

With a lack of commonness between dive computers, how in the world would one teach how to use them?

Incidentally, I dive using tables when my diving is recreational. Most of the time my limiting factor is air, not NDLs.

 

[Hawkwood]

With a lack of commonness between dive computers, how in the world would one teach how to use them?

One does not teach the specifics of how to use a particular dive computer - that is what the instruction manuals are for.

One teaches how dive computers work, what they do, how they do it, and what they tell you. Don't all computer's do the same basic thing?

I could make the similar argument about tables. I can teach the PADI RDP. They are not the same as SSI's, NAUI's, ACUC's, etc. The mechanics are similar, but the specifics are not. Am I somehow cheating a student if I teach the PADI table, but not all the various combinations and permutations of the other tables out there?

 

[rubixcube]

My two cents, in math class before the student is handed a calculator they are taught how to actually work the math. The calculator is easier, quicker, and more practical, it also reduces the possible amount of human error. That said if I need to solve a math problem and am without a calculator, or faced with a broken one I can still solve the problem. The parallel should be fairly obvious. As far as "longer courses and cost of tables", how long does it take to teach tables? In my OW course the tables took 1-1 1/2 hours tops, my entire nitrox course was about 3 hours long, that includes the physics, formulas, tables, PDC's, and the test, neither course felt rushed and I can complete tables quite easily. A set of waterproof dive and EAD tables should run no more than $15 tops, or you could print them off the internet and laminate them for only the of paper and ink.

 

[Randy43068]

It's an unfair analogy. Dive tables aren't as different from one agency to another as are dive computers from one company to another.

One does not teach the specifics of how to use a particular dive computer - that is what the instruction manuals are for.

One teaches how dive computers work, what they do, how they do it, and what they tell you. Don't all computer's do the same basic thing?

I could make the similar argument about tables. I can teach the PADI RDP. They are not the same as SSI's, NAUI's, ACUC's, etc. The mechanics are similar, but the specifics are not. Am I somehow cheating a student if I teach the PADI table, but not all the various combinations and permutations of the other tables out there?

 

[Kenny13]

Computers these days can cost quite a bit (fortune) or not.

With a lack of commonness between dive computers, how in the world would one teach how to use them?

Incidentally, I dive using tables when my diving is recreational. Most of the time my limiting factor is air, not NDLs.

Dive gear in general can cost quite a bit, fortune or not. As far as that goes, my golf clubs were expensive, as was my BBQ pit, home PC, etc. However, aside from the basic mask, fins, & snorkel (and even those can be pretty costly) my computer was one of the cheapest diving purchases I made.

As far as teaching how to use them, again learning any type of technology is different. Where training divers on computers is involved, it's learning how to dive safely using the functions that the computer offers but it's up to the individual diver to learn how to use the functions his particular computer offers on his own. Also, there are opportunities online to take specialty classes specific to the computer you purchase. I can only speak for the computer I own and not others, but mine is set up so simple that I'd have to say that a trained diver who couldn't figure out how to use it on his own would probably be better off staying on dry land. Don't take that as me knocking someone who chooses not to use a computer, but just that mine functions so simply that learning how to use it with or without formal training is a non-issue.

I'm right with you on being limited by air more than NDL's, but at the same time I also like the freedom of diving by my computer rather than limiting myself to square profiles. The way I look at it, if you enjoy diving and you're comfortable with the way you choose to do it, then that's fantastic!

 

[Randy43068]

I'm not saying that one should not teach a student about dive computers. I am saying, however, that it's my belief that the proper use of dive tables should be covered in class.

I simply asked HOW one can teach one to properly use a dive computer given the variation and complexities of many of them. Heck, the instruction book alone on some of those dive computers is more than a hundred pages.

I certainly can understand an instructor being able to give instruction on a class of a particular dive computer, but that's much different than giving the impression that a basic scuba class is teaching all dive computers.

Given that, I think it's a little misleading to the student when a course is advertised as teaching them about dive computers. (plural) However, we're getting off track. (I am, anyway)

Again, I don't think pedegogery of dive tables should be sacriaficed to the god of dive computers.

One does not teach the specifics of how to use a particular dive computer - that is what the instruction manuals are for.

One teaches how dive computers work, what they do, how they do it, and what they tell you. Don't all computer's do the same basic thing?

I could make the similar argument about tables. I can teach the PADI RDP. They are not the same as SSI's, NAUI's, ACUC's, etc. The mechanics are similar, but the specifics are not. Am I somehow cheating a student if I teach the PADI table, but not all the various combinations and permutations of the other tables out there?