Three strikes and you're out... I've now written off PADI

[rubixcube]

I learned in my OW class that it doesn't really matter who the instructor is. A couple of people passed the written exam by the skin of their teeth (ridiculous IMHO since you could use notes, and 80% of the answers were B ) There was also a student who ignored the instructor every chance he got (he wore 28 lbs. in fresh even though the instructor said he extremely overweight and he sank like a rock), he got really ticked off when told he ascended a bit fast and mumbled something about not caring and that he would ascend however fast he wanted. This was NAUI, and I honestly think my instructors were some of the best teachers I've ever had in anything. These people ended up passing, they successfully completed all the skills and dives. I don't really think a different instructor or agency would have helped these people. I would never dive with the person mentioned, and it scares me that the standards are low enough that people like those the OP mentioned can be certified (especially when they can reach DM and be this unsafe). But it happens and blaming the agency, the standards, or the instructors will only address part of the problem, ultimately its the people and their lack of common sense and safety that's the root of almost all the problems.

 

[Deefstes]

I'm fairly new to this and could be completely off base here but if your CMAS instructor taught you that doing open water drift dives without a signaling device was okay, you may want to toss them into that boiling pot as well.

Very good point and, to be fair, my instructor taught me very little if anything pertaining to signaling devices. I think this raises an interesting question, how many agencies actually do teach students in the 1 star or 2 star course how and where to use signaling devices?

I suppose the assumption is that students are taught what is applicable to the country or region in which they are taught. In South Africa (or at least, the KZN coast where we do most of our diving locally), drift diving is pretty much unheard of and as such I think agencies tend not to focus on issues pertaining to drift dives, just as they don't focus on issues pertaining to cold water diving (I've only learned about regulator freeflow as a result of heavy breathing in cold water on ScubaBoard). Conversely, they do focus on issues pertaining to boat diving (ex. backwards roll etc.) which might not receive much focus in countries where shore diving or giant stride entries are more typical.

That's what makes SB so great. I've learned stuff here that I wouldn't have learned by just doing my courses and diving locally.

Actually, it depends on your decompression model. You off gas dissolved gases fastest when at the highest gradient (shallow stop), but if you look at any of the bubble-models (RGBM, VPM/B) they want to keep you deeper. The dissolved-gas model takes you to the shallowest depth you can go to without bubbles forming, and holds you there while you off gas. The bubble models assume that micro-bubbles are continually forming and redissolving in your blood (and other tissues) during your ascent. By keeping you deeper, you keep these bubbles smaller, where they aren't going to cause problems.

Thanks adelman, your explanations of the mechanisms of bubble formation is most interesting. Your post addresses the issue though of "which depth is better for a safety stop" and not "at which depth do you off gas quicker". Like I said, the former is a very valid point for discussion but there is no way you off gas quicker at a deeper depth and that is what the instructor didn't seem to understand and which I had pointed out.

Is buddy-separation an emergency warranting skipping your safety stop? In my opinion, no, unless where is reason to believe that your buddy is going to need your assistance getting to or once on the surface.

Thanks, these are the type of responses I like, and this is the type of response I would have wanted to get from the instructor in question, not a knee jerk to me questioning the appropriateness of safety stops and a narrow minded mantra of "always do your safety stop, no matter what".

 

[rob@diveinutila.com]

When should a safety stop be omitted? I am pretty sure that there is no real answer to this. The divers judgement (or in some cases lack of it) being key.

Lets remember we're talking recreational diving and we do "No Stop" diving. That is our tables, etc are formulated to allow us to ascend directly to the surface at any time during a dive without stopping. A safety stop is a precautionary stop, to add extra conservatism and safety. These days many people, myself included, make 5 minute safety stops especially after deep dives. Some agencies even call it a "precautionary stop". It should not be confused with a mandatory decompression stop which unless we screw up we should never have to make with recreational diving. That's the point.

What emergency requires omitting a precautionary/safety stop. Who knows? Loosing the group could easily be one - 3 minutes is a long time to wait if you're if someone is in trouble underwater.

Omitting a safety stop should not mean dcs incident diving recreational profiles - but you should plan to include one as routine in every dive.

 

[JanK]

Is buddy-separation an emergency warranting skipping your safety stop? In my opinion, no, unless where is reason to believe that your buddy is going to need your assistance getting to or once on the surface.

I would certainly skip the safety stop in this situation. The very fact that you and your buddy got separated and that you are contemplating a return to surface mean that you have absolutely no idea what had happened with your buddy, so you cannot know that your buddy won't need assistance.

On the other hand the safety stop is optional and merely decreases your already quite remote chances of DCS (around 10 per 100000 dives), at least when diving within the NDL.

If I had to balance between the possibility of leaving my buddy alone on the surface in potential trouble or increasing slightly the chances of my injury, I would certainly go to the surface and see what's up. If everything turned out OK and I was near NDL, I'd then perhaps go down to do the safety stop or opt to breathe O2 on the way back.

 

[charlesml3]

Perhaps you should just swear off of any foreign diving. That appears to be the common thread to these incidents.

No, clearly the common ingredient here is male divemasters. You should avoid those. You should especially avoid male divemasters in foreign countries.

In all seriousness, your logic is horribly flawed. You're confusing correlation with causality. The same kind of logic that tries to find causation between the height of the stockmarket and women's skirt lengths. And yes, there is correlation there...

-Charles

 

[Bob DBF]

Is buddy-separation an emergency warranting skipping your safety stop? In my opinion, no, unless where is reason to believe that your buddy is going to need your assistance getting to or once on the surface.

When buddy diving, if there is a breakdown in the buddy system causing a separation and I can not locate my buddy in a minute or so, it is an emergency until I locate my buddy and he is OK. If you are going to use the buddy system, use it right or Solo.

Not only would I blow off the safety stop, I would be ascending @ 60'/min as I was initially taught and used until recently.

As for the 10' (3m) safety stop, it was probably a holdover from the 10' deco stop used when you violated NDL. This can be found on the old PADI tables and the old Navy dive tables.


Bob
------------------------------
I may be old, but I’m not dead yet.

 

[Kilili]

It's all about individual personalities, and nothing about PADI. Sounds like you have some other beef, and are trying to justify your position.

 

[Deefstes]

It's all about individual personalities, and nothing about PADI. Sounds like you have some other beef, and are trying to justify your position.

Wow, some stunning logic there. While you're on your streak of deduction, would you care to enlighten me as to what this beef might be and what this "position" might be I'm trying to justify?

I've had some bad experiences with people representing PADI. I point out three of these incidences (two of which have attacked the agency who trained me for poor training while they've obviously got their heads up their own backsides). Now if someone claims to be representing one agency while they attack another agency using stupid arguments and exhibiting bad diving practices, I'm going to question their agency, simple as that.

 

[Jax]

OK, rant over. I understand that different divers and different agencies have different ways of doing things but these PADI instructors seriously rubbed me the wrong way and it will take a few exemplary PADI instructors to restore my opinion of their agency.

Or, another way to look at it . . . It's the arses in life that you notice, as they are the ones that aren't doing what they are supposed to, and in this case, attacked your training and ergo, you . . . and hazarding a guess, I think that sticks in your craw?

You may have been diving with fine PADI divers / instructors, and never noticed because they weren't arses.

No reason to tar the whole Agency with the one brush.

 

[Deefstes]

Or, another way to look at it . . . It's the arses in life that you notice, as they are the ones that aren't doing what they are supposed to, and in this case, attacked your training and ergo, you . . . and hazarding a guess, I think that sticks in your craw?

You may have been diving with fine PADI divers / instructors, and never noticed because they weren't arses.

No reason to tar the whole Agency with the one brush.

Well said.