How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

[TMHeimer]

The responses certainly covered all bases. After OW you're SUPPOSED to be ready to go on your own with a buddy of equal or more advanced skill in conditions as good or better than your training. You're supposed to be competent and feel comfortable diving without a pro. I did this on my first dive after OW, and I think I felt that way. But as someone said, beginners don't know very much beyond the basics. So I guess you're not too green anymore when you feel that you're not too green. So it doesn't matter whether that's on dive #5 or #100, as long as you continue to think.

 

[SeaHorse81]

Actually you aren't disagreeing with me at all ... you're disagreeing with folks who use the "kneeling" method of dive instruction. I was just explaining why they do it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Indeed. That's what I get for reading and replying quickly while getting ready for work (not paying enough attention as I read). Sorry for the misunderstanding. :blush:

 

[SeaHorse81]

Believe it or not, I researched this topic for an article I was writing.

There was really no way to teach introductory skills other than on the knees.

With modern BCDs, we have new possibilities.

I think learning on the knees is an ingrained habit held over from the days when it really was the only way to do it. It made a lot of sense then, and it is very, very hard to break a tradition like that.

Your full post gives a nice perspective on where the practice started and why it's still in use, despite common sense and experience that now suggests otherwise.

It reminds me of when I was taught hand-signals for use while bicycling, which I was learning in the 60s. I was taught to signal a left turn by extending my left arm to the left (which made sense), and to signal a right turn by holding my left arm out with the forearm upraised (which did not make sense). My understanding is that this was a holdover of the hand signals used by drivers of cars back when cars had no electric turn signals! Early drivers had to signal that way because they could only get their left arm out the window where others could see, therefore signals for both directions were given with the left arm.

As ancient as it may make me sound to say I learned to ride a bicycle in the 60s, I can assure you it had by then been a LONG time since there were cars on the road without turn signals, yet there we were decades later, carrying on a practice that was no longer relevant (never mind that bicyclists could always have used either arm anyway). As recently as ten years ago, I saw in a cycling magazine a directive to stop signaling that way and use whichever arm was on the relevant side, for heaven's sake.

If we can hold on to useless practices for something as simple as turn signals for that long, I can only imagine the inertia to be overcome in changing the kneeling position still favored by so many in dive education. I'm very happy to know that more and more educators are updating their practices, most especially including NWGrateful Diver!

 

[TMHeimer]

Your full post gives a nice perspective on where the practice started and why it's still in use, despite common sense and experience that now suggests otherwise.

It reminds me of when I was taught hand-signals for use while bicycling, which I was learning in the 60s. I was taught to signal a left turn by extending my left arm to the left (which made sense), and to signal a right turn by holding my left arm out with the forearm upraised (which did not make sense). My understanding is that this was a holdover of the hand signals used by drivers of cars back when cars had no electric turn signals! Early drivers had to signal that way because they could only get their left arm out the window where others could see, therefore signals for both directions were given with the left arm.



I had to reply to this. Back in 1990 the directionals on my car conked out, so I used the old hand signals until parts were ordered (not fun when the temp. is literally minus 30). I THINK arm signals are still legal. Anyway, after I used the bent left arm to signal right turn the guy behind me thought I was giving him the finger, so he gave it back to me.

 

[soltari675]

As a recently certified diver I have an opinion on this from the student prospective.

As a certified diver, I do feel confident that I could go diving with just a buddy and be fine up to my training level. I have done it once. I know my equipment. I am working on bouyancy. I think I am doing well.

However, I feel more comfortable around a dive master or instructor. Why? Not because I am afraid I cannot do it. But because I know there are so many scenerios or things that occur regularly that I have not come across yet. There is A LOT I could learn from an experienced diver. So when I get a chance, I dive with a dive master or instructor because I can learn from them on how to be a better diver. This makes me better and safer when I am on my own. Someday, when I become a master diver, I hope I can give that back to a new diver and help them.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

As a recently certified diver I have an opinion on this from the student prospective.

As a certified diver, I do feel confident that I could go diving with just a buddy and be fine up to my training level. I have done it once. I know my equipment. I am working on bouyancy. I think I am doing well.

However, I feel more comfortable around a dive master or instructor. Why? Not because I am afraid I cannot do it. But because I know there are so many scenerios or things that occur regularly that I have not come across yet. There is A LOT I could learn from an experienced diver. So when I get a chance, I dive with a dive master or instructor because I can learn from them on how to be a better diver. This makes me better and safer when I am on my own. Someday, when I become a master diver, I hope I can give that back to a new diver and help them.

And here is the difference that many of us now are trying to point out. There is a huge difference in wanting to dive with a DM, instructor, or more experienced diver than in having to dive with one out of fear or incompetence. This to me is a sign of someone who is using good judgment and knows their limitations. They understand what they are capable of and where their limitations are take the proper steps to expand those limits. As opposed to a "diver" that is incapable of doing the most basic dive in conditions in which they were trained yet still require a professional to keep them from getting hurt. Whoever trained you, regardless of agency, did a good job. Kudos to them and you for being so responsible and taking charge of yourself.

 

[D_B]

I think that I was reasonably trained by a pretty thorough instructor (if you want to see what a class of his is like, see my PADI Drysuit Class review)
Still , that first dive with just me and my dive buddy was stressful, not for what happened but for the anxiety of knowing that the ocean is not too forgiving and thinking we're out there on our own.
I think that soltari675 says it nicely
In my case, I took the opportunity to dive more with skilled people by taking more classes by my instructor, being stressed in training under the eye of a skilled one is good .. and I feel a sense of accomplishment when I pass one of Ian's classes

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Your full post gives a nice perspective on where the practice started and why it's still in use, despite common sense and experience that now suggests otherwise.

It reminds me of when I was taught hand-signals for use while bicycling, which I was learning in the 60s.

If we can hold on to useless practices for something as simple as turn signals for that long, I can only imagine the inertia to be overcome in changing the kneeling position still favored by so many in dive education.

Sometimes the inertia of change discounts some of the pertinent reasoning from "the good old days."

If you are signaling with your right hand and have an emergency braking incident your only choice is to lock up the "front" brake.

 

[SeaHorse81]

If you are signaling with your right hand and have an emergency braking incident your only choice is to lock up the "front" brake.

There's no conflict here for me, because if I'm having an emergency braking incident on a bicycle, I'm using both hands on the brakes. Yes, it would be nice to signal at the same time, but practicality in an emergency likely dictates otherwise, for me, anyway. Back to diving...

 

[TMHeimer]

As a recently certified diver I have an opinion on this from the student prospective.

As a certified diver, I do feel confident that I could go diving with just a buddy and be fine up to my training level. I have done it once. I know my equipment. I am working on bouyancy. I think I am doing well.

However, I feel more comfortable around a dive master or instructor. Why? Not because I am afraid I cannot do it. But because I know there are so many scenerios or things that occur regularly that I have not come across yet. There is A LOT I could learn from an experienced diver. So when I get a chance, I dive with a dive master or instructor because I can learn from them on how to be a better diver. This makes me better and safer when I am on my own. Someday, when I become a master diver, I hope I can give that back to a new diver and help them.

That's exactly what I did. Makes sense to me.