How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

[SeaHorse81]

The Law of Primacy truly does apply ... that which is learned first is learned best. Those who learn on their knees have a much harder time developing good buoyancy skills ... because they now have to "unlearn" some of what they were initially taught.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Amen to that, in my case, at least. I was taught all the basic skills in the kneeling position, and find that reflex still haunts me just a bit, still. It took seemingly forever to figure out neutral and how to get it, and I think it took a lot longer because of how I got started. I am very glad to hear that more instructors are opting for the teaching of skills in the positions in which they will actually get used while diving.

I suspect the whole learning-on-your-knees thing seemed like a good idea in the early days of instruction when better ideas were yet to be had. The better ideas are now here.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Amen to that, in my case, at least. I was taught all the basic skills in the kneeling position, and find that reflex still haunts me just a bit, still. It took seemingly forever to figure out neutral and how to get it, and I think it took a lot longer because of how I got started. I am very glad to hear that more instructors are opting for the teaching of skills in the positions in which they will actually get used while diving.

I suspect the whole learning-on-your-knees thing seemed like a good idea in the early days of instruction when better ideas were yet to be had. The better ideas are now here.

Training on the knees is done because it's easier.

As students you are used to being in a vertically-oriented position ... we spend our day sitting and standing after all. So it's a more familiar orientation in which to become adjusted to an unfamiliar environment ... which is comforting to a lot of folks who may otherwise be having a hard time making the adjustment.

For the instructor, it's easier because it prevents you from floating away while they're trying to get you to do the skills you're required to do for the class.

That's why it's developed as a standard practice for training OW students. But it's a short-term benefit with long-term drawbacks.

So the question becomes where is it better to put in the effort to learn the skills properly ... from the outset or after your initial training is over?

I choose the former ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Cave Diver]

I could actually see a lovely series . . .

Looks like we're providing job security.

 

[scubadiver888]

Later on, the DM knelt in the only sandy area to point out a critter on a gorgonian. Everyone (except me, thankfully) had to lay their fins on the coral in order to see it. Not one had the ability to hover in trim (or in a headstand) to see the critter.

I think a lot of divers don't think about the fact that you are essentially weightless when diving.

I saw the same thing in Aruba. The guide got down on his stomach to look under a rock ledge and point out a critter under the ledge. Everyone else just followed what he did. I think I was the only one who came from behind the rocks and did a headstand.

 

[SeaHorse81]

Training on the knees is done because it's easier.

But it's a short-term benefit with long-term drawbacks.

So the question becomes where is it better to put in the effort to learn the skills properly ... from the outset or after your initial training is over?

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you in principle on this one, on a level that transcends dive education. I spend my days (as a counselor) helping people unravel the messes that their lives become when they have made decisions that were expedient in the short-term, but which carried poor long-term results. I have come to believe that regardless of how attractive or painful the short-term is, it doesn't matter because it will be here and then gone forever, and therefore warrants little attention in the decision-making process. Since the long-term is what you live with, my vote goes with whatever supports the best long-term outcome.

 

[flots am]

You need to define "Competent."

• Won't die or be injured
• Will come back happy with original buddy and a non-empty tank
• Can perform all the OW skills reliably and repeatedly with no warning and little anxiety.

flots.

 

[boulderjohn]

I suspect the whole learning-on-your-knees thing seemed like a good idea in the early days of instruction when better ideas were yet to be had. The better ideas are now here.

Believe it or not, I researched this topic for an article I was writing. I got a lot of help from Sam Miller, a well known dive historian who started instructing himself in the 1950's. (His LA County instructor certification number is 27.)

Dive instruction began when there was nothing to keep a diver floating except muscle power and lungs. Tanks had bands around them that held two shoulder straps in place. Later on the wet suit was invented, which added a little buoyancy. There was really no way to teach introductory skills other than on the knees.

Then the horse collar was invented. This allowed some buoyancy possibilities, but it was manually inflated and tended to put the diver in an upright posture. Learning on the knees still made sense.

With modern BCDs, we have new possibilities.

I think learning on the knees is an ingrained habit held over from the days when it really was the only way to do it. It made a lot of sense then, and it is very, very hard to break a tradition like that. I know it took a great leap of faith for me to try it for the first time.

I actually experimented at first with certified divers doing refresher courses. My next experimentation, believe it or not, was with children doing Discover Scuba Birthday parties, because they just needed to learn enough skills to be safe in the deep end of the pool. When I saw how easily they learned that way, I took the step of making sure it was all within standards and then tried it in OW instruction.

It took a lot of experimentation to find a good step-by-step process and the right amount of buoyancy for the initial skills, but I have finally reached the point where I think I have it nailed. The only real problem I have is that the pool in which I work was designed for doing the initial skills on the knees. When I have the students facing me in a horizontal posture, there is not a lot of room left for me, and I have to have my legs over the precipice of the deep end as I demonstrate. That's not a big deal, though.

 

[flots am]

It might be written in the Padi guidelines as an actual requirement, but like Bob and Thal have written, I don't see how it can be achieved in a course that lasts less than a week. IMO, something isn't wrong with the training per se, something is wrong with any agency claiming they can turn out a self-sufficient diving buddy pair in 5 days.

That's sort of the point. The stated goal of the OW class is to produce safe, competent OW divers.

AFAIK, no agency claims that any particular number of hours of class or pool will produce a safe diver. They have "recommendations" but there's no guarantee that any specific amount of time will produce a safe diver. That responsibility falls directly at the feet of the instructor.

If the diver isn't ready for OW (regardless of class length) the instructor shouldn't sign the card.

flots.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you in principle on this one, on a level that transcends dive education. I spend my days (as a counselor) helping people unravel the messes that their lives become when they have made decisions that were expedient in the short-term, but which carried poor long-term results. I have come to believe that regardless of how attractive or painful the short-term is, it doesn't matter because it will be here and then gone forever, and therefore warrants little attention in the decision-making process. Since the long-term is what you live with, my vote goes with whatever supports the best long-term outcome.

Actually you aren't disagreeing with me at all ... you're disagreeing with folks who use the "kneeling" method of dive instruction. I was just explaining why they do it ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[annlaur]

That's sort of the point. The stated goal of the OW class is to produce safe, competent OW divers.

AFAIK, no agency claims that any particular number of hours of class or pool will produce a safe diver. They have "recommendations" but there's no guarantee that any specific amount of time will produce a safe diver. That responsibility falls directly at the feet of the instructor.

If the diver isn't ready for OW (regardless of class length) the instructor shouldn't sign the card.

flots.

While Padi clearly states on its Website that the OWD course is based on performance and that students progress at their own pace, it also clearly states that the minimum requirements are 5 sessions in confined water, 4 in OW and that those can take as little as 3 or 4 days.
Even with twice that amount of training, I don't think one can be considered a safe, confident diver.

I did all the required skills perfectly, both on the bottom and in mid-water during my class, with no problem at all. But just because you can do something at one point in your life doesn't mean you'll remember how to do it a few months later. Everytime I go on a dive trip, I'm amazed how much I've forgotten during my dry spell. Not intellectually, as I read and learn a lot here. But in terms of coordination, buoyancy, confidency in the water, reflexes…

Now, if someone has access to easy shallow shore dives, they can practice and get experience with a buddy, and slowly train their brain and body to do things without thinking. But that doesn't qualify them as safe and competent right out of OW training.

I agree with Thalassamania's definitions :

You need to define "Competent." I think that any competent definition of the word puts the lie to the idea that entry level qualifications that says that, "you're competent and safe to dive without one as soon as you pass the course in conditions equal to or better than training," is worth the plastic that it is printed on, and most new divers seem to get this. I define "Competent" in some other posts as:

Competent: The diver now has a good working knowledge of diving, as well as some background knowledge of diving, and as a result can deal with knowledge in context. Recognition of relevance is now present. Actions are seen, at least partly, in terms of longer-term goals. The diver is able to cope with simple multiple, simultaneous, and competing inputs. The diver sees actions (at least partially) in terms of longer-term goals. The diver performs best with standardized and routine procedures, but is able to achieve most tasks using his or her own judgment and can also engage in conscious and deliberate planning. Skills are fit for the purpose intended, though they may lack refinement.
​

I'd suggest that most diver come out of an entry level call at what I call "Novice" and that they really are not ready to dive with a buddy who is similarly qualified, "in conditions equal to or better than training," until the are well into the level that I describe as "Beginner":

Beginner: The diver has developed a working knowledge of key aspects of tasks and appreciates that complex diving situations exist. Since situational awareness is limited, all attributes and aspects tend to be treated separately and given equal importance. Though the diver begins to use global characteristics of situations that are recognized from limited prior experience, problems are primarily solved by using rote guidelines for action that are based on situational attributes. The diver is starting to make rudimentary attempts to decide on appropriate actions in context, but is limited to applying actions as a series of steps, and thus can not be expected to successfully resolve complex situations. Though supervision is needed for the accomplishment of the overall task, straightforward tasks likely to be completed to an acceptable standard and the beginner is able to achieve some steps using his or her own judgment.​

I am not bashing Padi or saying short classes shouldn't exist. But saying they produce competent divers is wrong.