How do you know when you're too "green" to dive without an instructor or DM?

[Cave Diver]

OMG, what a cool idea. I'm going to do that! I will ask the question and ask for replies to be sent to my email . . . . then I'll collate the answers and post them here (and maybe the magazine will want to include them, too. It will be fascinating to find out the answer!! I'm so glad I asked you guys. Cheers, Brianna

We have a fantastic amount of experience and insight on this board. We may not always agree, but you can always count on some of the members to provide some thought provoking discussion.

There's not much I can add that they haven't already covered. But I do feel that new divers should leave their BOW class prepared to plan and dive on their own under the conditions they were trained without having to have a dive pro with them. If they can't comfortably do so, then IMO they didn't receive adequate training. Obviously more challenging conditions may require additional help before they're ready to tackle it, but they should still be able to handle the basics on their own.

I hope your article does a fair job of highlighting some of these issues and that you consider posting it here for those that may not have access to it otherwise.

 

[SeaHorse81]

Well, first of all, I think the services offered by the dive ops are more driven by the desire for tips than because people are incompetent. ... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your detailed reply. You make many solid, well-informed points which is what makes for a quality discussion. It also shows how complicated the issue becomes once you look at it in any depth.

My only clarification goes to your quote above. I asked the staff directly why they were doing everything, and they told me in so many words that it was to keep people who didn't know what they were doing from setting up the gear incorrectly. I'm sure they're happy to get tips as well, but that is how they answered the question.

Elizabeth

 

[Wookie]

It might be written in the Padi guidelines as an actual requirement, but like Bob and Thal have written, I don't see how it can be achieved in a course that lasts less than a week. IMO, something isn't wrong with the training per se, something is wrong with any agency claiming they can turn out a self-sufficient diving buddy pair in 5 days.

That's the best thing I've seen written in this thread so far.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your detailed reply. You make many solid, well-informed points which is what makes for a quality discussion. It also shows how complicated the issue becomes once you look at it in any depth.

My only clarification goes to your quote above. I asked the staff directly why they were doing everything, and they told me in so many words that it was to keep people who didn't know what they were doing from setting up the gear incorrectly. I'm sure they're happy to get tips as well, but that is how they answered the question.

Elizabeth

Yes. Well. We (dive operators) usually won't speak of what we do to increase the size of the tips. It's quite gauche to do so. Instead we prattle on about how the safety of the customer, how we make it easy on the customer, etc. etc. In all fairness, they probably were doing it so that the customer didn't screw up. Finding a customer's regulator on upside down/backwards when they are just about to step off the boat is a huge pain in the butt, as everyone has to move out of the way while the offending client is led back to their gear station, their buddies may be in the water already and waiting on the surface in less than ideal conditions, etc. You can choose to look at as the DM doing something nice for the diver (setting up their gear) to increase tips, or doing something nice for the diver (setting up their gear) to make the DM's life easier. Whatever works best for you is grand. Now, when the DM rinses your gear for you and stores it at the dive shop to dry while you are in town having post-dive libations, they are doing it for the tips.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your detailed reply. You make many solid, well-informed points which is what makes for a quality discussion. It also shows how complicated the issue becomes once you look at it in any depth.

My only clarification goes to your quote above. I asked the staff directly why they were doing everything, and they told me in so many words that it was to keep people who didn't know what they were doing from setting up the gear incorrectly. I'm sure they're happy to get tips as well, but that is how they answered the question.

Elizabeth

I don't doubt it at all ... different dive ops create their own policies, and have their own reasons for doing so. I was just clarifying that those reasons don't apply industry-wide, but rather only to that specific dive op.

Unfortunately, it is very common that dive op specific policies are driven by the lowest common denominator ... which is often the assumption that the customer is incompetent, whether or not that is the case. Many do so purely for liability reasons.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[boulderjohn]

Today, my boss at work told me how her instructor skipped over several of the course requirements (like the swim test!) and just checked them off of the list. I'm sure the instructor was in another country (I think she might have said Mexico), so she will probably not have the opportunity to get a tune-up or a followup from this instructor.

I can testify that this happened to me when I was originally certified in Puerto Vallarta, Mexico. I don't remember exactly what we did in every case, but I can tell you for sure that I did no swim or float test. All my pool work was done in a few hours in a pool with a maximum depth of 5 feet, which means no hovering for sure. I remember doing the compass work on the surface, but I don't remember doing it under water. I don't recall doing a CESA, but I could be wrong. I know we did the OOA procedure in only one direction, and I remember that because it didn't work. I was OOA, discarding my regulator as I had been taught. My buddy (in poor visibility) could not get her alternate to me in a way that I could get it easily, and the instructor took it from her and got it to me.

So, yes, this happens, and it shouldn't. Why didn't I report it? Because I didn't know any better. As far as I knew, everything had been done by the book. It was not until I started my DM training and had to demonstrate competence in all sorts of skills I had never heard of that I realized how badly I had been taught.

(BTW, I am pretty sure that operator no longer exists.)

 

[Cave Diver]

Hiya. I'm a writer for California Diver magazine and I'm writing an article for new divers on how to know when you have enough experience to go diving without an instructor or a divemaster (but with a buddy, of course!).

I see this going from an article to a series...

 

[boulderjohn]

While I agree that no one can teach skills properly in a course that is as short as some courses are, I also believe, on the other hand, that one can take students much, much farther than usual in the same amount of time with small changes in your instructional approach.

For example, I served as an assistant to an instructor in a pool session recently. The main instructor knew I did things differently from the traditional approach, but he made it very clear that we were going to do things his way--which was purely traditional. At the end of the pool session, the students could perform all skills competently while totally negative and kneeling on the bottom of the pool. In the limited amount of time they had to swim freely, they had no buoyancy control whatsoever. The total pool time went about an hour total over the scheduled time, which was generous in comparison to a number of programs.

In comparison, in the last 1.5 years, no students in my classes did any skills negative and on their knees. My approach has evolved, and in the last several classes, ALL the students did ALL the skills in the last two sessions neutral and in mid water, including no mask swim/mask replacement, weight belt removal/replacement, and scuba unit removal/replacement. They looked perfectly comfortable swimming in horizontal trim, even as they practiced OOA situations with their buddies. I finished the pool sessions within the scheduled time; in fact, I could have finished early--I was just letting them swim around to finish up the scheduled time.

In the classroom, it takes only a few more minutes after you have done all the dive planning training (tables or whatever) to describe a dive site and have buddy teams plan a three dive day, including depths, times, and surface intervals.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

While I agree that no one can teach skills properly in a course that is as short as some courses are, I also believe, on the other hand, that one can take students much, much farther than usual in the same amount of time with small changes in your instructional approach.

For example, I served as an assistant to an instructor in a pool session recently. The main instructor knew I did things differently from the traditional approach, but he made it very clear that we were going to do things his way--which was purely traditional. At the end of the pool session, the students could perform all skills competently while totally negative and kneeling on the bottom of the pool. In the limited amount of time they had to swim freely, they had no buoyancy control whatsoever. The total pool time went about an hour total over the scheduled time, which was generous in comparison to a number of programs.

In comparison, in the last 1.5 years, no students in my classes did any skills negative and on their knees. My approach has evolved, and in the last several classes, ALL the students did ALL the skills in the last two sessions neutral and in mid water, including no mask swim/mask replacement, weight belt removal/replacement, and scuba unit removal/replacement. They looked perfectly comfortable swimming in horizontal trim, even as they practiced OOA situations with their buddies. I finished the pool sessions within the scheduled time; in fact, I could have finished early--I was just letting them swim around to finish up the scheduled time.

In the classroom, it takes only a few more minutes after you have done all the dive planning training (tables or whatever) to describe a dive site and have buddy teams plan a three dive day, including depths, times, and surface intervals.

I take a similar approach, John ... starting students out in the shallow end on their knees, then progressing to lying down, then to a "fin pivot" position, and finally to neutral. This progression occurs rather quickly during the initial pool session. After that, skills are taught while hovering. If necessary, they're allowed one fingertip or fin tip on the bottom for stability ... with the goal of developing beyond the need for even that much.

The final session is mostly random skills practice while swimming in the deep end, practicing buoyancy control. Students are expected to perform whatever skill I or my assistant request while hovering.

Because that's how they practice the skill in the pool, once we're on the checkout dives it becomes easier for them to achieve in OW ... with all that extra cold-water gear on.

In the final pool session they are also doing these skills in hood and gloves ... to acclimate themselves to cold-water requirements.

The Law of Primacy truly does apply ... that which is learned first is learned best. Those who learn on their knees have a much harder time developing good buoyancy skills ... because they now have to "unlearn" some of what they were initially taught.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[TSandM]

I could actually see a lovely series . . . highlighting popular Southern California dive sites, whether they are done from shore or from a boat, and discussing the particular skills that might be necessary or desirable to have to do those sites, and when those skills might be employed.

For example, a piece on Vet's Park could talk about the ability to evaluate surf conditions, techniques for surf entry, and using natural navigation to return to your entry point.

A piece on the Catalina Dive Park could talk about how to get on the steps at the end of the dive (and how to evaluate the difficulty you'll face in doing it) and the effect of tides on the ease of entry and exit.

An article on the oil rigs could talk about managing live boat entries and exits, including how to get ready efficiently on the boat, and safety aspects of reboarding.

I could see a good series of articles here, all aimed at safety and education, but also highlighting fun diving which is accessible to new or a little more seasoned divers in SoCal.

 

[boulderjohn]

The Law of Primacy truly does apply ... that which is learned first is learned best. Those who learn on their knees have a much harder time developing good buoyancy skills ... because they now have to "unlearn" some of what they were initially taught.

If you have only taught skills like regulator recovery and mask clearing in a kneeling, upright posture, you will not realize how very different it is to do the skills in a horizontal posture until you actually see it being done.

Two years ago I was diving with a group of highly experienced divers near Kona. One of our group was a part time DM for the operator, and he was very upfront about the fact that we were there to help break in a new DM. Everybody in our group had more dives than the DM. During the dive, I saw one of the divers get a partially flooded mask. In order to clear it, he had to switch to a completely upright posture, which led to him kneeling on the coral. He had never learned to clear his mask by tipping the head properly, which is not necessary when you are kneeling.

Later on, the DM knelt in the only sandy area to point out a critter on a gorgonian. Everyone (except me, thankfully) had to lay their fins on the coral in order to see it. Not one had the ability to hover in trim (or in a headstand) to see the critter.