Going from BP-wing to Jacket BCD ...

[TechBlue]

I'd like some second and third opinions about whether the above is a very narrow minded view of resort diving. Here in Hawaii, I would agree with the above quoted percentages of resort instructor's using vest BC's (no such thing as resort DM's in Hawaii). But Hawaii is not a dive resort location; our resort diving is mostly Intro's and OW Cert's. Mostly I'm wondering; Is it really JUST marketing?

Hawaii resorts do not lend themselves to dive op's that do retail. Perhaps the predominant dive op in Hawaii is the charter boat, but I'm comfortable saying ~half of our charter operators do not have a brick and mortar "store" so retail is out of the question. A prudent Hawaii instructor would take long looks at fleaBay, craigslist and swing by the Salvation Army 2 or 3 times a week.

We really can't afford wholesale +10%, +S&H (although often we pay it). I searched/waited for months to score my blue vest SeaQuest off eBay for $130 shipped; the same style I took new ($250 clearance) to my "zero to hero" CDC, and the same style as nearly all the resort BC's my employers have had for customers. It's easy to train warm water divers in that style BC, it's easy to train in the same style BC and it's not hard to dive well in that style BC.

One day I popped into Salvation Army and a nearly unused blue Balance was my reward, for $20. Now I guide in the Balance and instruct in the vest, but if the price had been $100 for the Balance I would still only be diving the vest. It's OK, for $20 (well maybe a little better than OK). How much will it be for a competent ebay BP/W shipped to Maui?

>95% of all rental BC's in Hawaii are vest BC's; resorts, charters and dive shops. It's probably higher by a few digits. Here on Maui there are those that would limit commercial ocean recreation at many popular sites due to supposed negative impact of badly trained and guided divers over the reefs, and they are watching us closely. Partly due to that scrutiny, I do not see tours comprised of the sawtooth profile, rototilling noob's many of the BP/W crowd "claim" the "poodle jacket" mostly produces.

I mostly see happy new divers who are doing quite well. Our employers would not be our employers if we were fueling our opponents fire and customers were being scared or hurt. We would also not be able to afford car insurance without tips; if any of us thought BP/W, or even BI smaller than XXL, would increase our tips from the multitude of vacation and Intro diver's, don't you think there would be more? If nothing is broken, what good is a fix?

I am not trying to convince anybody on what to dive, although as usual you are taking a contrary biased opinion you actually agreed with me as to why you use a BCD instead of a BP

 

[senseiern]

That is not what you said though: "A BP/Wing is great but adjusting, etc. is too much to ask of a new diver..."

It's not too much to ask. People can do it if they want, it's not beyond their capabilities. I have a number of buddies that brought a BP/W when they were brand new divers and they coped just fine.

Whether it is too much or not, has to be answered individually. But, on my pool work a month ago, if the instrctor had given me something that needed to be adjusted, other than a cumberbund and two shoulder straps, it might have been information overflow and I would have surely forgotten some of the other 3000 things to always remember.

For the introduction to diving, elimination of the unnecessary is important. Now, once I get my OW, next month, I will probably get a jacket to start, since there are so many they are cheaper, but once diving is a regular part of my weekly schedule, I will test a BP/W a few times to see if i like it more or less.

 

[Randy43068]

I keep everything the same so I never get things confused if/when the scat hits the fan.

BP/W for single tank dives with all my regs and everything else in exactly the same place as they are with the doubles.

When I was taught pistol craft in the police academy we were taught to keep things the same so there is no thinking when you need the tools, you grab and it's there. I use the same philosophy when diving. Keep things in the same place all the time.

I may rent a jacket on vacation if I don't pack the single wing and BP, not my druthers, however.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Whether it is too much or not, has to be answered individually. But, on my pool work a month ago, if the instrctor had given me something that needed to be adjusted, other than a cumberbund and two shoulder straps, it might have been information overflow and I would have surely forgotten some of the other 3000 things to always remember.

For the introduction to diving, elimination of the unnecessary is important. Now, once I get my OW, next month, I will probably get a jacket to start, since there are so many they are cheaper, but once diving is a regular part of my weekly schedule, I will test a BP/W a few times to see if i like it more or less.

I think if you do some research you will find that a simple BP/W can be purchased for less than many quality BC's.

 

[senseiern]

I think if you do some research you will find that a simple BP/W can be purchased for less than many quality BC's.

interesting? The jackets I've used so far...supplied by the dive shop seem to come integrated with back plates, harness, bladder, pockets, and enough rings to that as Randy stated, to keep everything in the same place every time. there doesn't seem to be anything I wouldn't use that is included, but being newb, I don't know what I don't know, so maybe there is something on the BCD that I don't know is there, but haven't been shown how to use (I just found out about the pockets on my last dive, which would have been better for weights instead of a belt...that is one thing I WILL get, is integrated weights!)

To get a BP/W to have the things listed above, is it still less expensive?

I am totally open to trying a BP/W. The one thign that bothers me is that the tendancy to float horizontal, face down, at the surface, even though I have a snorkel, so face down is sort of ok, I would rather the choice be mine and not my gear's decision.

 

[OldNSalty]

I think if you do some research you will find that a simple BP/W can be purchased for less than many quality BC's.

While factually correct I think this is also a bit misleading. If you do some research I think you can find a BP/W that is cheaper then a BC. I think if you do some research you can find a BC is cheaper then a BP/W.

It is almost like saying that a Honda car is cheaper then a ford truck...er, could it be that a ford truck is cheaper then a Honda car? Well, which car? What truck? What time of year? Do clearance models count?

BP/W can be cheaper but it really depends on too many variables. It is also potentially cheaper in the long run, except I think many BP/W users end up with a couple of plates and maybe 2 or 3 wings so...maybe not cheapest after all.

 

[Randy43068]

While factually correct I think this is also a bit misleading. If you do some research I think you can find a BP/W that is cheaper then a BC. I think if you do some research you can find a BC is cheaper then a BP/W.

It is almost like saying that a Honda car is cheaper then a ford truck...er, could it be that a ford truck is cheaper then a Honda car? Well, which car? What truck? What time of year? Do clearance models count?

BP/W can be cheaper but it really depends on too many variables. It is also potentially cheaper in the long run, except I think many BP/W users end up with a couple of plates and maybe 2 or 3 wings so...maybe not cheapest after all.

< chuckling > Tell me what hobby/sport where we only buy only minimum equipment and always stay with our starter stuff? Scuba is not different, so it's not unusual to have more than one BP/wing, more than one type of tank, more than one set of regulators.. the list goes on and on..

If cheap is what we want, this is the wrong hobby to be in.

 

[OldNSalty]

< chuckling > Tell me what hobby/sport where we only buy only minimum equipment and always stay with our starter stuff? Scuba is not different, so it's not unusual to have more than one BP/wing, more than one type of tank, more than one set of regulators.. the list goes on and on..

If cheap is what we want, this is the wrong hobby to be in.

Well let’s see, over my diving life I have owned at any one time to many regulators to be useful, several different sized tanks, maybe more thermal protection then I could wear, extra cutting tools, assorted parts but really only one BCD at a time.

Maybe for you guys in the cold who travel I can see the need for different setups.

The point is that the BP/W system is marketed by the users as the last BCD you will ever need. Find a need for a pocket?-buy one and put it on. Need a bigger pocket? Buy one and put it on. Don’t like pockets anymore? Take them off. Need more lift? Buy a bigger wing for your old plate. Like weight integration? A few more dollars is all it takes. Want to do doubles? Hey, you’re already there. Etc.

To this end they do offer the user much more versatility and so with a single plate and a lot of add-ons I could have one system that does the job of several BCVs for less money over the course of my diving life.

That’s the theory but I would suggest that isn’t the reality. Most people dive for a short time and don’t need the versatility. Most divers use one BCJ and replace it over time. Most BP/W users fall in love with the concept and forgo the economics of 1 system for all diving and buy multiple systems (granted-diving between extreme cold and warm vacation spots requires them to do so).

I like my BP/W. I like the economic benefits and versatility of being able to customize it but I don’t think it is any cheaper than a good jacket.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

I am not trying to convince anybody on what to dive, although as usual you are taking a contrary biased opinion you actually agreed with me as to why you use a BCD instead of a BP

Contrary to what? The vast majority of divers worldwide or the vast majority of posters to this thread.

IMHO, to say the vest BC was designed by non-divers to separate divers from their money is pretty rediculous.

To say that marketing is the reason, or lack of marketing is the reason, seems a little simplistic to really be the answer.

I am not the only poster who could be labeled biased and I am most likely not the only poster who does not agree with your statement below.

like it or not a BP wing setup is a superior piece of kit

 

[TechBlue]

Contrary to what? The vast majority of divers worldwide or the vast majority of posters to this thread.

IMHO, to say the vest BC was designed by non-divers to separate divers from their money is pretty rediculous.

To say that marketing is the reason, or lack of marketing is the reason, seems a little simplistic to really be the answer.

I am not the only poster who could be labeled biased and I am most likely not the only poster who does not agree with your statement below.

First of all you decided to use one section of my post then went off on an inane ramble that did not make sense to man nor beast. You then use statements totally out of context and create ridiculous (spelling hint) arguments. I never said anything about who designed what.

Regarding my statement that a BP/wing is superior piece of kit why don't you tell us why every serious technical diver uses one instead of a BCD?